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	<title>Comments on: Christian Wisdom</title>
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	<description>Serving the joyful cultivation of the theological craft for the life of the church: inquiring honestly, deliberating wisely, acting faithfully</description>
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		<title>By: Kyle Strobel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/christian-wisdom/#comment-10592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Strobel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 13:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2123#comment-10592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim, yes, that does. Thanks for the expansion. 

I think you are right. My inclination is that one of the many culprits is how theology is understood and how the theological task is undertaken. Our account of Scripture, in evangelical circles, tends not to be theologically informed as mcuh as it is apologetically-oriented to maximize our ability to invoke Scripture in polemics. 

I think you are right about the theological forbearance on the front end providing greater precision and uniting which will only see its culmination in the eschaton. 

I&#039;ve been thinking about self-love lately, on account of Edwards use of it, and wonder if that could be mapped onto this as well? Self-sufficiency is a kind of self-love that is oriented towards my texts, my interpretation and my ecclesial tradition. Engagement with others becomes hard because I know myself as I know these various facets of my background. Anyway, just some random thoughts...back to Edwards.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, yes, that does. Thanks for the expansion. </p>
<p>I think you are right. My inclination is that one of the many culprits is how theology is understood and how the theological task is undertaken. Our account of Scripture, in evangelical circles, tends not to be theologically informed as mcuh as it is apologetically-oriented to maximize our ability to invoke Scripture in polemics. </p>
<p>I think you are right about the theological forbearance on the front end providing greater precision and uniting which will only see its culmination in the eschaton. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about self-love lately, on account of Edwards use of it, and wonder if that could be mapped onto this as well? Self-sufficiency is a kind of self-love that is oriented towards my texts, my interpretation and my ecclesial tradition. Engagement with others becomes hard because I know myself as I know these various facets of my background. Anyway, just some random thoughts&#8230;back to Edwards.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Reitman</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/christian-wisdom/#comment-10591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Reitman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 13:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2123#comment-10591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well stated, Kyle.

The way you have framed the issue reveals exactly what has been going on in my own theological camp.  There are those who have been insisting on, as you put it, &quot;just a highly propositional account of hermeneutics&quot; and in the process have been progressively isolating themselves from those who disagree, even on the finer details of the propositions being floated for debate.  What has resulted is a kind of theological separationism that is rupturing fellowship by degenerating into &lt;i&gt;ad hominem&lt;/i&gt; attacks.  Those who insist on requiring a uniformly propositional account as a test of fellowship are IMO approaching the text out of a self-sufficient disposition and, to varying degrees, not &quot;living the right way,&quot; as you put it.  

(I am a little reticent to use the term &quot;ethical,&quot; because many people hear that term and instinctively image in their minds some variety or other of law-based, &quot;checklist&quot; behavior toward others [i.e., &quot;good manners&quot;], rather than Spirit-led behavior toward others.  &quot;Good manners&quot; for some, like me, &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; in fact be Spirit-led, but others may be called to &lt;i&gt;abandon&lt;/i&gt; &quot;good manners&quot; in order to love well.)

There is on the part of some of the players in my camp a remarkable lack of compassion and forbearance for those whose propositional &quot;understanding&quot; does not match their own.  Some of this is due to self-aggrandizing &lt;i&gt;pride&lt;/i&gt; in their own understanding of the propositions; some of this is just plain &lt;i&gt;fear&lt;/i&gt; of the innate, non-propositional existential uncertainty that our flesh is heir to and, consequently, a tenacious, fear-based clinging to the propositions more than to the &quot;proposition-Giver.&quot;  Both of these are &quot;flavors&quot; of hermeneutic self-sufficiency.  

Moreover, in light of your previous thread on post-foundationalism, we may in retrospect well view much of the grounding of &lt;i&gt;foundationalism&lt;/i&gt; to have been forged in such hermeneutic &quot;self-sufficiency.&quot;  It is not that we should embrace an &lt;i&gt;anti&lt;/i&gt;-propositional hermeneutic as much as to humbly acknowledge that much, if not most, of our invited response to propositional revelation is &lt;i&gt;non&lt;/i&gt;-propositional in nature yet, ironically, may result in greater &quot;understanding&quot; of the truth.

What is happening now in my theological camp is nothing less than a test of ecclesial unity in the Spirit; yet sadly, there is a profound lack of ecclesiological &quot;identity&quot; among the various &quot;players.&quot;  This is a perfect recipe for continued profound fragmentation and, hence, the utter trivialization of our theological impact.  Consequently, yes, Kyle, to use your terminology, we have all but abandoned a &quot;communal and ethical reading.&quot;  I would, however, not restrict the sense of &quot;communal&quot; to &quot;Christian tradition.&quot;  In fact, I believe the more important aspects of understanding end up emerging &quot;non-propositionally&quot; from &quot;living the right way&quot; &lt;i&gt;in community&lt;/i&gt; because we are committed &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; more to the unity of the Body than to theological precision.

I must say that for most of my 28 &quot;hermeneutic years&quot; since I entered seminary I have lived out of pride in my own understanding of the propositions and have approached others out of a mindset of &quot;persuasion&quot; rather than the kind of forbearance and compassion that is rooted in the righteous character of the proposition-Giver.  What has been happening to me over the last 5-6 years is a new understanding of &lt;i&gt;discourse in community&lt;/i&gt; that is more &quot;ethical&quot; in the way we treat each other yet doesn&#039;t necessarily &quot;give away the theological store,&quot; so to speak.

Ironically, theological &lt;i&gt;forbearance&lt;/i&gt; on the &quot;front end&quot; (without necessarily &quot;compromising&quot;) may actually result in greater theological &lt;i&gt;precision&lt;/i&gt; on the &quot;back end,&quot; ultimately to be consummated only in the &lt;i&gt;eschaton&lt;/i&gt;.

Does that make enough sense?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well stated, Kyle.</p>
<p>The way you have framed the issue reveals exactly what has been going on in my own theological camp.  There are those who have been insisting on, as you put it, &#8220;just a highly propositional account of hermeneutics&#8221; and in the process have been progressively isolating themselves from those who disagree, even on the finer details of the propositions being floated for debate.  What has resulted is a kind of theological separationism that is rupturing fellowship by degenerating into <i>ad hominem</i> attacks.  Those who insist on requiring a uniformly propositional account as a test of fellowship are IMO approaching the text out of a self-sufficient disposition and, to varying degrees, not &#8220;living the right way,&#8221; as you put it.  </p>
<p>(I am a little reticent to use the term &#8220;ethical,&#8221; because many people hear that term and instinctively image in their minds some variety or other of law-based, &#8220;checklist&#8221; behavior toward others [i.e., "good manners"], rather than Spirit-led behavior toward others.  &#8220;Good manners&#8221; for some, like me, <i>will</i> in fact be Spirit-led, but others may be called to <i>abandon</i> &#8220;good manners&#8221; in order to love well.)</p>
<p>There is on the part of some of the players in my camp a remarkable lack of compassion and forbearance for those whose propositional &#8220;understanding&#8221; does not match their own.  Some of this is due to self-aggrandizing <i>pride</i> in their own understanding of the propositions; some of this is just plain <i>fear</i> of the innate, non-propositional existential uncertainty that our flesh is heir to and, consequently, a tenacious, fear-based clinging to the propositions more than to the &#8220;proposition-Giver.&#8221;  Both of these are &#8220;flavors&#8221; of hermeneutic self-sufficiency.  </p>
<p>Moreover, in light of your previous thread on post-foundationalism, we may in retrospect well view much of the grounding of <i>foundationalism</i> to have been forged in such hermeneutic &#8220;self-sufficiency.&#8221;  It is not that we should embrace an <i>anti</i>-propositional hermeneutic as much as to humbly acknowledge that much, if not most, of our invited response to propositional revelation is <i>non</i>-propositional in nature yet, ironically, may result in greater &#8220;understanding&#8221; of the truth.</p>
<p>What is happening now in my theological camp is nothing less than a test of ecclesial unity in the Spirit; yet sadly, there is a profound lack of ecclesiological &#8220;identity&#8221; among the various &#8220;players.&#8221;  This is a perfect recipe for continued profound fragmentation and, hence, the utter trivialization of our theological impact.  Consequently, yes, Kyle, to use your terminology, we have all but abandoned a &#8220;communal and ethical reading.&#8221;  I would, however, not restrict the sense of &#8220;communal&#8221; to &#8220;Christian tradition.&#8221;  In fact, I believe the more important aspects of understanding end up emerging &#8220;non-propositionally&#8221; from &#8220;living the right way&#8221; <i>in community</i> because we are committed <i>a priori</i> more to the unity of the Body than to theological precision.</p>
<p>I must say that for most of my 28 &#8220;hermeneutic years&#8221; since I entered seminary I have lived out of pride in my own understanding of the propositions and have approached others out of a mindset of &#8220;persuasion&#8221; rather than the kind of forbearance and compassion that is rooted in the righteous character of the proposition-Giver.  What has been happening to me over the last 5-6 years is a new understanding of <i>discourse in community</i> that is more &#8220;ethical&#8221; in the way we treat each other yet doesn&#8217;t necessarily &#8220;give away the theological store,&#8221; so to speak.</p>
<p>Ironically, theological <i>forbearance</i> on the &#8220;front end&#8221; (without necessarily &#8220;compromising&#8221;) may actually result in greater theological <i>precision</i> on the &#8220;back end,&#8221; ultimately to be consummated only in the <i>eschaton</i>.</p>
<p>Does that make enough sense?</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Strobel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/christian-wisdom/#comment-10585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Strobel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 11:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2123#comment-10585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim, thanks for your response. Would self-sufficiency entail, negatively speaking, an understanding of hermeneutics that evangelicals have tended towards - which is that if I disappear in my office long enough, and think hard enough, I can come to the right interpretation? In other words, is this just a highly propositional account of hermeneutics? 

In comparison, would a &quot;fear of God&quot; interpretation lean more towards a communal and ethical reading, communal in the sense of the Christian tradition and ethical in the sense of interpretation being more than just getting the right answers but living the right way?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, thanks for your response. Would self-sufficiency entail, negatively speaking, an understanding of hermeneutics that evangelicals have tended towards &#8211; which is that if I disappear in my office long enough, and think hard enough, I can come to the right interpretation? In other words, is this just a highly propositional account of hermeneutics? </p>
<p>In comparison, would a &#8220;fear of God&#8221; interpretation lean more towards a communal and ethical reading, communal in the sense of the Christian tradition and ethical in the sense of interpretation being more than just getting the right answers but living the right way?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Reitman</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/christian-wisdom/#comment-10557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Reitman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 15:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2123#comment-10557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well stated question, Kyle.  

This thread seems to continue the examination of our motivation and &lt;i&gt;telos&lt;/i&gt; in &quot;doing theology&quot; on prior 
TF threads like &lt;b&gt;Theological Temptations: Grandiosity&lt;/b&gt; and &lt;b&gt;Should Theologians Be Spiritual?&lt;/b&gt;

In my own work on Wisdom in the books of Job and Ecclesiastes, the operative terms (IMO) for engaging Ford&#039;s work (and indeed the terms that are most naturally adduced from the texts) are the opposing human dispositions of &quot;self-sufficiency&quot; and the &quot;the fear of God.&quot;  Theologians, just like other members of the people of God, naturally vacillate between the extremes of &lt;i&gt;self-sufficiency&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;the fear of God&lt;/i&gt;, and this vacillation has both &lt;i&gt;individual&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;collective&lt;/i&gt; components; that is to say, we can choose to be self-sufficient in our approach to the text both as individuals and as theological &quot;camps.&quot;

This oscillating dynamic is alive and well in my own theological &quot;camp&quot;---the so-called Free Grace movement---and it has been painfully obvious when individuals and &quot;sub-camps&quot; within this movement have gravitated more toward the &quot;self-sufficient&quot; pole in the name of maintaining theological &quot;purity&quot; or adherence to tradition, even within this relatively recent (at least in any organized sense) theological movement.

I return to a key theme of Vanhoozer&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Is There a Meaning in This Text?&lt;/i&gt;---that of the high priority of &quot;respect for the A/author&quot; in our approach to Biblical texts. In this light, I would venture that &quot;reading in the Spirit&quot; will &quot;look&quot; like the fear of God much more than it will look like self-sufficiency.  My sense of the &quot;substance&quot; of the notion of the fear of God is that it is very close to &quot;respect for the Author&quot; in showing one&#039;s primary willingness to grant God the prerogative of &quot;life or death&quot; over one&#039;s &quot;dreams&quot; and &quot;many words.&quot;  (See further the index entries for these themes in my &lt;i&gt;Unlocking Wisdom&lt;/i&gt;.)

As hinted at by the subtitle of Ford&#039;s book, this will entail on the one hand a willingness to undergo some healthy deconstruction of both personal theological &quot;commitments&quot; and larger traditions or systems; and on the other hand a very practical commitment to love &quot;difficult&quot; others as a test of whether theological fine-tuning is actually occurring, as opposed to building momentum in a return to the &quot;self-sufficient&quot; pole of our theological development in response to revelation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well stated question, Kyle.  </p>
<p>This thread seems to continue the examination of our motivation and <i>telos</i> in &#8220;doing theology&#8221; on prior<br />
TF threads like <b>Theological Temptations: Grandiosity</b> and <b>Should Theologians Be Spiritual?</b></p>
<p>In my own work on Wisdom in the books of Job and Ecclesiastes, the operative terms (IMO) for engaging Ford&#8217;s work (and indeed the terms that are most naturally adduced from the texts) are the opposing human dispositions of &#8220;self-sufficiency&#8221; and the &#8220;the fear of God.&#8221;  Theologians, just like other members of the people of God, naturally vacillate between the extremes of <i>self-sufficiency</i> and <i>the fear of God</i>, and this vacillation has both <i>individual</i> and <i>collective</i> components; that is to say, we can choose to be self-sufficient in our approach to the text both as individuals and as theological &#8220;camps.&#8221;</p>
<p>This oscillating dynamic is alive and well in my own theological &#8220;camp&#8221;&#8212;the so-called Free Grace movement&#8212;and it has been painfully obvious when individuals and &#8220;sub-camps&#8221; within this movement have gravitated more toward the &#8220;self-sufficient&#8221; pole in the name of maintaining theological &#8220;purity&#8221; or adherence to tradition, even within this relatively recent (at least in any organized sense) theological movement.</p>
<p>I return to a key theme of Vanhoozer&#8217;s <i>Is There a Meaning in This Text?</i>&#8212;that of the high priority of &#8220;respect for the A/author&#8221; in our approach to Biblical texts. In this light, I would venture that &#8220;reading in the Spirit&#8221; will &#8220;look&#8221; like the fear of God much more than it will look like self-sufficiency.  My sense of the &#8220;substance&#8221; of the notion of the fear of God is that it is very close to &#8220;respect for the Author&#8221; in showing one&#8217;s primary willingness to grant God the prerogative of &#8220;life or death&#8221; over one&#8217;s &#8220;dreams&#8221; and &#8220;many words.&#8221;  (See further the index entries for these themes in my <i>Unlocking Wisdom</i>.)</p>
<p>As hinted at by the subtitle of Ford&#8217;s book, this will entail on the one hand a willingness to undergo some healthy deconstruction of both personal theological &#8220;commitments&#8221; and larger traditions or systems; and on the other hand a very practical commitment to love &#8220;difficult&#8221; others as a test of whether theological fine-tuning is actually occurring, as opposed to building momentum in a return to the &#8220;self-sufficient&#8221; pole of our theological development in response to revelation.</p>
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