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	<title>Comments on: Theological Educator as&#8230; (Ruminations of a Novice, Pt. 1)</title>
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	<description>Serving the joyful cultivation of the theological craft for the life of the church: inquiring honestly, deliberating wisely, acting faithfully</description>
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		<title>By: Theological Educator As&#8230;(Ruminations of a Novice, Pt. 2) &#171; Theology Forum</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-17097</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Theological Educator As&#8230;(Ruminations of a Novice, Pt. 2) &#171; Theology Forum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-17097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] (See &#8220;Ruminations&#8221; part one here) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (See &#8220;Ruminations&#8221; part one here) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Eilers</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kent Eilers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 18:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Derek, it is good to hear from you again. Your allusion to John of the Cross’ teaching on the Dark Night seems right on to me. And it indicates again why theological educators must embrace the pastoral character of their task (or, to take Don’s word from above: “formator”). Good word D and thanks for the encouragement!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek, it is good to hear from you again. Your allusion to John of the Cross’ teaching on the Dark Night seems right on to me. And it indicates again why theological educators must embrace the pastoral character of their task (or, to take Don’s word from above: “formator”). Good word D and thanks for the encouragement!</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Resler</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Derek Resler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 14:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks to all for an invigorating read!  As one who has entered into the working world where time to ruminate on weighty topics such as this is scarcely thin, you bring a needed refreshment to my mind and subsequently, my heart. 

I find your post quite thought provoking Kent!  James, Don, G and others, your responses helpful in guiding my thoughts on this.  As one who is dabbling in theological education at the moment I have been investigating my own pedagogical method and now have more food for thought.  

How the post and thread of spoken to my heart at the moment is the need for a educator to carefully and lovingly peel away theological, biblical, cultural, and historical assumptions about their beliefs and expose what lies beneath to the examination of the Spirit.  This is a very critical process in education and one if done wrongly, or even rightly with the wrong spirit, can lead to damage.  I just met a man who asked me why does it seem that his friends who go off to theological education come back skeptics rather than joyful servants of God?  Oh, the difficult task of each of us who desire to educate others!  Truely, this task before us all cannot and will bring glory to God if we do not, in all humiliation, come before God empty in need of His presence and Spirit to say anything worthy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

What I find of great worth as a novice educator myself, is the charge by Kent to pluck up the courage to expose our beliefs to the dividing sword of Scripture, or more accurately, the Spirit for refining.  The educator, with the loving hands of a smith, needs to be willing to enter into the &quot;shoes&quot; as it were of the student to know when to pull them from the fire, to shock them in the water, and to put them back in the fire.  John of Cross comes to mind as he elucidates how God brings us into the Dark Night in order to strip us of our vestments, theological and actual, in order to draw us into a deeper understanding and relationship with him.  Is this not the task and challenge to each of us.

In a way Kent I find your charge exciting, terrifying, and all together impossible!  But praise be to God whose strength is made perfect in our weakness!  I look forward expectedly to the rest of your posts and the subsequent dialogue.  James, Kent, Kyle and others, you have no idea the impact of your thoughtful, transparent posts have on others - Keep it up!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to all for an invigorating read!  As one who has entered into the working world where time to ruminate on weighty topics such as this is scarcely thin, you bring a needed refreshment to my mind and subsequently, my heart. </p>
<p>I find your post quite thought provoking Kent!  James, Don, G and others, your responses helpful in guiding my thoughts on this.  As one who is dabbling in theological education at the moment I have been investigating my own pedagogical method and now have more food for thought.  </p>
<p>How the post and thread of spoken to my heart at the moment is the need for a educator to carefully and lovingly peel away theological, biblical, cultural, and historical assumptions about their beliefs and expose what lies beneath to the examination of the Spirit.  This is a very critical process in education and one if done wrongly, or even rightly with the wrong spirit, can lead to damage.  I just met a man who asked me why does it seem that his friends who go off to theological education come back skeptics rather than joyful servants of God?  Oh, the difficult task of each of us who desire to educate others!  Truely, this task before us all cannot and will bring glory to God if we do not, in all humiliation, come before God empty in need of His presence and Spirit to say anything worthy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!</p>
<p>What I find of great worth as a novice educator myself, is the charge by Kent to pluck up the courage to expose our beliefs to the dividing sword of Scripture, or more accurately, the Spirit for refining.  The educator, with the loving hands of a smith, needs to be willing to enter into the &#8220;shoes&#8221; as it were of the student to know when to pull them from the fire, to shock them in the water, and to put them back in the fire.  John of Cross comes to mind as he elucidates how God brings us into the Dark Night in order to strip us of our vestments, theological and actual, in order to draw us into a deeper understanding and relationship with him.  Is this not the task and challenge to each of us.</p>
<p>In a way Kent I find your charge exciting, terrifying, and all together impossible!  But praise be to God whose strength is made perfect in our weakness!  I look forward expectedly to the rest of your posts and the subsequent dialogue.  James, Kent, Kyle and others, you have no idea the impact of your thoughtful, transparent posts have on others &#8211; Keep it up!</p>
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		<title>By: Don Payne</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10726</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Payne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 16:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10726</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A fair concern, Kent, which is why I mentioned that &quot;more than one image comes to mind.&quot;  This is only one.  It is regrettable to me that the field of spiritual formation has blossomed into it&#039;s own (often isolated) &quot;discipline&quot; that is often championed as some kind of antidote to the dangers of rigorous biblical and theological inquiry.  In Western Christianity (both culturally Western and Western as opposed to E. Orthodox) it is also quite individualistic.  As social Trinitarianism and concomitant social understandings of the imago progress within Western theological circles, that individualism is slowing being challenged.  Yet, it&#039;s more deeply etched than we know and will not be quickly overhauled.

Your presenting question for this dialogue should lead us to consider how theological educators and theological education function AS (not &quot;with&quot; or &quot;alongside&quot;) formation.  Once spiritual formation and the role of &quot;formators&quot; are isolated from theological inquiry in any way (and there are a number of subtle ways that happens - fodder for another line of conversation, I suppose), dangerous results follow.  One example among many is that we polarize &quot;knowing,&quot; &quot;being,&quot; and &quot;doing&quot; or theological education, formation, and mission.  Is there genuine formation into Christ&#039;s image that is not intricately interwoven with love of neighbor and all that that involves missionally?  Is not a missional life intrinsically formative?  Are we not acting theologically in the mix of all this?  

In a post above, someone made reference to embedded theology.  As we might all admit, we&#039;re all theologians and always doing theology.  I think one task of the theological educator is to be a guide who helps people do theology well.  That is not exactly the same thing as imparting theological language and categories and affirmations, though it&#039;s mighty difficult to teach theology without those.  Sadly, those are often mistaken for the theological task itself - a sad and fatal mistake.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fair concern, Kent, which is why I mentioned that &#8220;more than one image comes to mind.&#8221;  This is only one.  It is regrettable to me that the field of spiritual formation has blossomed into it&#8217;s own (often isolated) &#8220;discipline&#8221; that is often championed as some kind of antidote to the dangers of rigorous biblical and theological inquiry.  In Western Christianity (both culturally Western and Western as opposed to E. Orthodox) it is also quite individualistic.  As social Trinitarianism and concomitant social understandings of the imago progress within Western theological circles, that individualism is slowing being challenged.  Yet, it&#8217;s more deeply etched than we know and will not be quickly overhauled.</p>
<p>Your presenting question for this dialogue should lead us to consider how theological educators and theological education function AS (not &#8220;with&#8221; or &#8220;alongside&#8221;) formation.  Once spiritual formation and the role of &#8220;formators&#8221; are isolated from theological inquiry in any way (and there are a number of subtle ways that happens &#8211; fodder for another line of conversation, I suppose), dangerous results follow.  One example among many is that we polarize &#8220;knowing,&#8221; &#8220;being,&#8221; and &#8220;doing&#8221; or theological education, formation, and mission.  Is there genuine formation into Christ&#8217;s image that is not intricately interwoven with love of neighbor and all that that involves missionally?  Is not a missional life intrinsically formative?  Are we not acting theologically in the mix of all this?  </p>
<p>In a post above, someone made reference to embedded theology.  As we might all admit, we&#8217;re all theologians and always doing theology.  I think one task of the theological educator is to be a guide who helps people do theology well.  That is not exactly the same thing as imparting theological language and categories and affirmations, though it&#8217;s mighty difficult to teach theology without those.  Sadly, those are often mistaken for the theological task itself &#8211; a sad and fatal mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Payne</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10724</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Payne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 15:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10724</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here, Here!!  Precisely what I was getting at in a previous entry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here, Here!!  Precisely what I was getting at in a previous entry.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Eilers</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10711</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kent Eilers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 13:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[G, it is good to have you around, and we hope you come by often. Cheers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G, it is good to have you around, and we hope you come by often. Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Eilers</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10709</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kent Eilers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 12:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10709</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don, I love the idea of theological educator as &quot;formator&quot;. I only worry that it narrows down the &lt;i&gt;telos&lt;/i&gt; of theological education to the individual and his or her spiritual formation and not to the individual&#039;s role in God&#039;s Kingdom consummating work in the world. I worry it is not (beware: trendy word coming up) missional enough. 

Any thoughts on this?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don, I love the idea of theological educator as &#8220;formator&#8221;. I only worry that it narrows down the <i>telos</i> of theological education to the individual and his or her spiritual formation and not to the individual&#8217;s role in God&#8217;s Kingdom consummating work in the world. I worry it is not (beware: trendy word coming up) missional enough. </p>
<p>Any thoughts on this?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10677</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 16:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ken,

I agree that this kind of deconstruction is necessary, but it is only an act of love if the students are led from error to truth, rather than from error to nihilism.  I experienced this same stripping my fundamentalist/dispensational upbringing but there was no active attempt by those early professors to fill the remaining void with the gospel; it was just left a void.  I&#039;m picturing a demon getting seven of his friends and finding an earlier vacated room well cleaned and empty, ready to be re-inhabited.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken,</p>
<p>I agree that this kind of deconstruction is necessary, but it is only an act of love if the students are led from error to truth, rather than from error to nihilism.  I experienced this same stripping my fundamentalist/dispensational upbringing but there was no active attempt by those early professors to fill the remaining void with the gospel; it was just left a void.  I&#8217;m picturing a demon getting seven of his friends and finding an earlier vacated room well cleaned and empty, ready to be re-inhabited.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Eilers</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kent Eilers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 16:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ken, &lt;i&gt;yes&lt;/i&gt;, the examples you list would be acts of love indeed! The scenarios I am imagining here, however, are those in which professors having led students &quot;off the cliff edge&quot; are then unwilling to accompany (or &quot;walk with&quot;) those students through the difficult and inevitably painful process of reconstructing those foundations or fail to give them the requisit skills to continue the process once those students leave their care. This comes back around again to why I believe the role of theological educator includes a significant pastoral function (something we will discuss later on).

Adam, glad to hear you are heading to Aberdeen! I hope your experience their will be as positive and challenging as mine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, <i>yes</i>, the examples you list would be acts of love indeed! The scenarios I am imagining here, however, are those in which professors having led students &#8220;off the cliff edge&#8221; are then unwilling to accompany (or &#8220;walk with&#8221;) those students through the difficult and inevitably painful process of reconstructing those foundations or fail to give them the requisit skills to continue the process once those students leave their care. This comes back around again to why I believe the role of theological educator includes a significant pastoral function (something we will discuss later on).</p>
<p>Adam, glad to hear you are heading to Aberdeen! I hope your experience their will be as positive and challenging as mine.</p>
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		<title>By: ken oakes</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/theological-educator-as-ruminations-of-a-novice-pt-1/#comment-10674</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ken oakes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 15:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2165#comment-10674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(My apologies in advance for the rather dramatic and melancholy tone of this post.)

Kent,

I am unsure about this statement:

What this is NOT: leading students to fearful places is not a trusted professor or figure of ecclesial authority leading theological neophytes off the cliff-edge of their belief system...Instances of this (and, sadly, they are not few) evidence nothing more than powerplays by insecure educators seeking self-approval in their ability to unsettle their students. There is no love in this.

I tend to think that some students (and here I will invoke those thousands upon thousands of students inhabitating Christian liberal arts colleges in the States) will need to be led off the cliff of their belief system, if such a system includes things like those bewildering &quot;literal&quot; renderings of Revelation, hoping that Providence gives them enough hints and signs to find &quot;the right one,&quot; thinking that Christianity is primarily the story between their individual souls and God, and especially by pointing out how Americanism constantly and implicitly informs their Scriptural hermeneutic and in fact usually triumphs over Scripture. 

Robbing students of these beliefs would not be &quot;powerplays by insecure educators seeking self-approval in their ability to unsettle their students,&quot; but acts of love.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(My apologies in advance for the rather dramatic and melancholy tone of this post.)</p>
<p>Kent,</p>
<p>I am unsure about this statement:</p>
<p>What this is NOT: leading students to fearful places is not a trusted professor or figure of ecclesial authority leading theological neophytes off the cliff-edge of their belief system&#8230;Instances of this (and, sadly, they are not few) evidence nothing more than powerplays by insecure educators seeking self-approval in their ability to unsettle their students. There is no love in this.</p>
<p>I tend to think that some students (and here I will invoke those thousands upon thousands of students inhabitating Christian liberal arts colleges in the States) will need to be led off the cliff of their belief system, if such a system includes things like those bewildering &#8220;literal&#8221; renderings of Revelation, hoping that Providence gives them enough hints and signs to find &#8220;the right one,&#8221; thinking that Christianity is primarily the story between their individual souls and God, and especially by pointing out how Americanism constantly and implicitly informs their Scriptural hermeneutic and in fact usually triumphs over Scripture. </p>
<p>Robbing students of these beliefs would not be &#8220;powerplays by insecure educators seeking self-approval in their ability to unsettle their students,&#8221; but acts of love.</p>
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