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	<title>Comments on: Eucharistic Presence: A Proposal</title>
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	<description>Serving the joyful cultivation of the theological craft for the life of the church: inquiring honestly, deliberating wisely, acting faithfully</description>
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		<title>By: Kyle Strobel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-17541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Strobel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-17541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Todd, thank you for your thoughts. You should know that, in this post, all I was trying to do was to provide an overview of Professor Hunsinger&#039;s volume.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, thank you for your thoughts. You should know that, in this post, all I was trying to do was to provide an overview of Professor Hunsinger&#8217;s volume.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Aylard</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-17507</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd Aylard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 08:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-17507</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr Strobel,

I am a Roman Catholic, and with respect, I think that your contrast of transubstantiation with transelementation does injustice to the former.

With these words you describe transubstantiation:

-- Descent, replacement, transmuted, fixed, one-sided, containment, Aristotelian metaphysics, essences and accidents.

Some of these words are accurate in their proper context, but they are all either technical or negative; and you contrast them with words very colorful and positive for transelementation:

-- Ascent, enhancement, reality, power, dynamic, living, indwelling, mystical, unabridged.

While &quot;substance,&quot; &quot;accident,&quot; etc. are perfectly suitable for theologicial precision, these latter, more colorful words are also fitting for the Catholic doctrine. In fact, I would argue that they are more fitting for transubstantiation than they are for transelementation for the following reason:

The ascent, power, mystical indwelling, etc. in transelementation, as I understand it, refers to temporary association of the elements with God; whereas in transubstantiation it refers to elements becoming God and remaining God. That is ascent. That is power. That is dynamic, living, and mystical. If there is an abridgment, I suggest to you that it is not in transubstantiation, but in a doctrine that holds anything less.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Strobel,</p>
<p>I am a Roman Catholic, and with respect, I think that your contrast of transubstantiation with transelementation does injustice to the former.</p>
<p>With these words you describe transubstantiation:</p>
<p>&#8211; Descent, replacement, transmuted, fixed, one-sided, containment, Aristotelian metaphysics, essences and accidents.</p>
<p>Some of these words are accurate in their proper context, but they are all either technical or negative; and you contrast them with words very colorful and positive for transelementation:</p>
<p>&#8211; Ascent, enhancement, reality, power, dynamic, living, indwelling, mystical, unabridged.</p>
<p>While &#8220;substance,&#8221; &#8220;accident,&#8221; etc. are perfectly suitable for theologicial precision, these latter, more colorful words are also fitting for the Catholic doctrine. In fact, I would argue that they are more fitting for transubstantiation than they are for transelementation for the following reason:</p>
<p>The ascent, power, mystical indwelling, etc. in transelementation, as I understand it, refers to temporary association of the elements with God; whereas in transubstantiation it refers to elements becoming God and remaining God. That is ascent. That is power. That is dynamic, living, and mystical. If there is an abridgment, I suggest to you that it is not in transubstantiation, but in a doctrine that holds anything less.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr Alvin Kimel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12181</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fr Alvin Kimel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12181</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m afraid I have never understood what the charge of &quot;liturgical Pelagianism.&quot;  I have certainly heard a number of homilies that have verged on Pelagianism; but I have never experienced the liturgy itself, whether in its Anglican or Catholic forms, as Pelagian or even as semi-Pelagian.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid I have never understood what the charge of &#8220;liturgical Pelagianism.&#8221;  I have certainly heard a number of homilies that have verged on Pelagianism; but I have never experienced the liturgy itself, whether in its Anglican or Catholic forms, as Pelagian or even as semi-Pelagian.</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby Grow</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bobby Grow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[George said:

&lt;em&gt;. . . For example, for all its faults practical Zwinglianism would not be as bad, in important respects, as “liturgical Pelagianism,” a term of misgiving that I have encountered in both Catholic and Reformed writers.&lt;/em&gt;

Yes maybe if we all read TF Torrance&#039;s paper: &lt;em&gt;&quot;The Mind of Christ in Worship: The Problem of Apollinarianism in the Liturgy,&quot; we could avoid &quot;liturgical Pelagianism.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George said:</p>
<p><em>. . . For example, for all its faults practical Zwinglianism would not be as bad, in important respects, as “liturgical Pelagianism,” a term of misgiving that I have encountered in both Catholic and Reformed writers.</em></p>
<p>Yes maybe if we all read TF Torrance&#8217;s paper: <em>&#8220;The Mind of Christ in Worship: The Problem of Apollinarianism in the Liturgy,&#8221; we could avoid &#8220;liturgical Pelagianism.&#8221;</em></p>
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		<title>By: George Hunsinger</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12159</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George Hunsinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12159</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One last point of clarification, if I may.  I have received a private communication asking that I explain something more clearly.

From the standpoint of the Reformed tradition, I think our best hope, if things ever got so far, would be to follow the lead of the Orthodox.  If they make curbing extra-liturgical use of the Holy Gifts a condition for eucharistic sharing, them I think we should fall in with them.  If they decide, however, as they probably would, that the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament and the Corpus Christi celebrations were dubious but not intolerable, then I think we should go with that.  

I don&#039;t think this issue is important enough to let it block eucharistic sharing.  I think all traditions will have practices in their history that will need to be tolerated by the others, even if the others do not adopt them.  I don&#039;t see how the Reformed (and indeed most Protestants) could see the extra-liturgical use of the Gifts as anything less than unfortunate.

By the way, I welcome Fr. Kimel&#039;s term &quot;practical Zwinglianism,&quot; which I find to be quite useful.  Nevertheless, I find myself thinking that it&#039;s not necessarily all bad.  For example, for all its faults practical Zwinglianism would not be as bad, in important respects, as &quot;liturgical Pelagianism,&quot;  a term of misgiving that I have encountered in both Catholic and Reformed writers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One last point of clarification, if I may.  I have received a private communication asking that I explain something more clearly.</p>
<p>From the standpoint of the Reformed tradition, I think our best hope, if things ever got so far, would be to follow the lead of the Orthodox.  If they make curbing extra-liturgical use of the Holy Gifts a condition for eucharistic sharing, them I think we should fall in with them.  If they decide, however, as they probably would, that the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament and the Corpus Christi celebrations were dubious but not intolerable, then I think we should go with that.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this issue is important enough to let it block eucharistic sharing.  I think all traditions will have practices in their history that will need to be tolerated by the others, even if the others do not adopt them.  I don&#8217;t see how the Reformed (and indeed most Protestants) could see the extra-liturgical use of the Gifts as anything less than unfortunate.</p>
<p>By the way, I welcome Fr. Kimel&#8217;s term &#8220;practical Zwinglianism,&#8221; which I find to be quite useful.  Nevertheless, I find myself thinking that it&#8217;s not necessarily all bad.  For example, for all its faults practical Zwinglianism would not be as bad, in important respects, as &#8220;liturgical Pelagianism,&#8221;  a term of misgiving that I have encountered in both Catholic and Reformed writers.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr Alvin Kimel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fr Alvin Kimel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[George, here is the article by Ware to which I was referring:

&quot;Orthodox and catholics in the seventeenth century: schism or intercommunion,&quot; by K. T. Ware, in *Schism, Heresy and Religious Protest: papers read at the tenth summer meeting and the eleventh winter meeting of the Ecclesiastical History Society,* (Studies in Church History, 9) ed. by Derek Baker (Cambridge, 1972: Cambridge University Press; ISBN: 0-521-08486-5), pp. 259-276.

My thanks to Bill Tighe for the information.  My copy of the article is in one of many unopened boxes in my basement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George, here is the article by Ware to which I was referring:</p>
<p>&#8220;Orthodox and catholics in the seventeenth century: schism or intercommunion,&#8221; by K. T. Ware, in *Schism, Heresy and Religious Protest: papers read at the tenth summer meeting and the eleventh winter meeting of the Ecclesiastical History Society,* (Studies in Church History, 9) ed. by Derek Baker (Cambridge, 1972: Cambridge University Press; ISBN: 0-521-08486-5), pp. 259-276.</p>
<p>My thanks to Bill Tighe for the information.  My copy of the article is in one of many unopened boxes in my basement.</p>
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		<title>By: George Hunsinger</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George Hunsinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:10:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a deal.  But I would think a simple bow, such as we can find among the Orthodox, would be more attainable.

I appreciate this exchange, since it helps me to see that if, God willing, we ever got so far, Protestants might need to adopt a charitable stance in tolerating the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.

By the way, the passage you remembered reading from Ware may be found in The Orthodox Church (2nd. ed.), p. 98.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a deal.  But I would think a simple bow, such as we can find among the Orthodox, would be more attainable.</p>
<p>I appreciate this exchange, since it helps me to see that if, God willing, we ever got so far, Protestants might need to adopt a charitable stance in tolerating the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.</p>
<p>By the way, the passage you remembered reading from Ware may be found in The Orthodox Church (2nd. ed.), p. 98.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr Alvin Kimel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fr Alvin Kimel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll tell you what, George,  if we ever get to the point where Reformed pastors and congregations are prostrating themselves before the sacred Body and precious Blood *within* the eucharistic liturgy, I will write the Pope personally and ask him to consider curbing Corpus Christi processions.  Deal?  :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll tell you what, George,  if we ever get to the point where Reformed pastors and congregations are prostrating themselves before the sacred Body and precious Blood *within* the eucharistic liturgy, I will write the Pope personally and ask him to consider curbing Corpus Christi processions.  Deal?  :)</p>
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		<title>By: George Hunsinger</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12101</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George Hunsinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m afraid we may be highjacking the thread.  We should probably continue the discussion offline or in some other venue.

Andrew Louth&#039;s concern, which I take to be typical of the Orthodox, is that the consecrated host ought not to be abstracted from the eucharistic celebration, and that it ought not to taken as an end in itself.  The host is consecrated not directly for the sake of adoration but for the sake of union and communion with Christ.  

Adoration has its proper place only in the course of the liturgy, but in that setting the Holy Gifts are properly adored and reverenced.  

Curbing the cult of the elements outside the eucharist would be an important step toward visible unity.

&quot;The Purpose of the Eucharist lies not in the change of the bread and wine, but in the partaking of Christ, who has become our food, our life, the manifestation of the Church as the body of Christ. This is why the gifts themselves never became in the Orthodox East an object of special reverence, contemplation, and adoration, and likewise an object of special theological &#039;problematics&#039;: how, when, in what manner their change is accomplished.&quot;

Alexander Schmemann, &lt;i&gt;The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom&lt;/i&gt; (Crestwood, New York: St. Vladimir&#039;s Seminary, 1998), p. 226.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid we may be highjacking the thread.  We should probably continue the discussion offline or in some other venue.</p>
<p>Andrew Louth&#8217;s concern, which I take to be typical of the Orthodox, is that the consecrated host ought not to be abstracted from the eucharistic celebration, and that it ought not to taken as an end in itself.  The host is consecrated not directly for the sake of adoration but for the sake of union and communion with Christ.  </p>
<p>Adoration has its proper place only in the course of the liturgy, but in that setting the Holy Gifts are properly adored and reverenced.  </p>
<p>Curbing the cult of the elements outside the eucharist would be an important step toward visible unity.</p>
<p>&#8220;The Purpose of the Eucharist lies not in the change of the bread and wine, but in the partaking of Christ, who has become our food, our life, the manifestation of the Church as the body of Christ. This is why the gifts themselves never became in the Orthodox East an object of special reverence, contemplation, and adoration, and likewise an object of special theological &#8216;problematics&#8217;: how, when, in what manner their change is accomplished.&#8221;</p>
<p>Alexander Schmemann, <i>The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom</i> (Crestwood, New York: St. Vladimir&#8217;s Seminary, 1998), p. 226.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr Alvin Kimel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/eucharistic-presence-a-proposal/#comment-12099</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fr Alvin Kimel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=2435#comment-12099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the quotation from Fr Andrew.  It&#039;s difficult to know how seriously to take this objection.  As far as I can determine (and I welcome correction here), Orthodox objection to Catholic extra-liturgical devotion appears to be fairly recent.  I recall reading a few years ago an essay by Metropolitan Kallistos in which he noted that even up to the 17th century, in places where Catholics and Orthodox lived in close proximity, e.g., Cyprus, Orthodox priests would sometimes take part in the Corpus Christi procession.  

Perhaps eight years ago or so I called a Catholic priest who was very involved in national and international Catholic/Orthodox dialogue and asked him if the Orthodox participants had ever raised serious objection to the practice of Benediction and other extra-liturgical devotions.  He said they had not, that it had never come up in his extensive conversations with Orthodox theologians.  

I know that in the past Orthodox polemicists have sometimes accused Catholics of artolatry, because of the practice of genuflecting to the bread and cup before the Epiclesis.  An Orthodox monk raised this objection with me in conversation a few years before I became Catholic, but it does not appear to be a serious contemporary Orthodox concern about Catholic liturgical practice.

And of course, a millennium ago the Orthodox vehemently objected to the Catholic use of unleavened bread  for the Eucharist; I have not run across this objection in contemporary Orthodox literature though.  I wonder if this concern has been raised in Orthodox/Armenian conversations.      

Legitimate questions can, of course, be raised about certain expressions of extra-liturgical eucharistic devotion.  I was too deeply formed in Anglicanism not to find myself still feeling a bit uneasy about public Corpus Christi processions, though I feel no uneasiness about Benediction, which I find profoundly moving.   

The Orthodox reserve the Blessed Sacrament, but they do not direct any prayer or devotion to the reserved elements.  I have wondered why and have speculated that Eastern Christians have never felt a personal need for such prayer because the visual aspects of devotion are so powerfully fulfilled by the presence and use of icons.  Unfortunately, icon devotion never took root in the West.  Just a speculation on my part.  

If an Orthodox believer were to visit a Catholic parish where the Blessed Sacrament is exhibited for adoration, prayer, and intercession, would he/she really find this practice objectionable?  Perhaps some would, but most, I think, would not.  They might find it alien to their own experience, but I do not think they would raise principled objections to it.

But whatever objections Orthodox theologians might raise about Catholic extra-liturgical devotional practices, surely Catholics and Orthodox are one in their conviction that *within* the liturgy, the sacramental Christ is properly adored and reverenced.  I remember the first time I attended an Orthodox Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified.  When the Blessed Sacrament was brought out in procession, members of the congregation prostrated themselves in adoration.  I think many contemporary Catholics could learn a great deal from the Orthodox on how to properly adore the sacred Body and precious Blood.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the quotation from Fr Andrew.  It&#8217;s difficult to know how seriously to take this objection.  As far as I can determine (and I welcome correction here), Orthodox objection to Catholic extra-liturgical devotion appears to be fairly recent.  I recall reading a few years ago an essay by Metropolitan Kallistos in which he noted that even up to the 17th century, in places where Catholics and Orthodox lived in close proximity, e.g., Cyprus, Orthodox priests would sometimes take part in the Corpus Christi procession.  </p>
<p>Perhaps eight years ago or so I called a Catholic priest who was very involved in national and international Catholic/Orthodox dialogue and asked him if the Orthodox participants had ever raised serious objection to the practice of Benediction and other extra-liturgical devotions.  He said they had not, that it had never come up in his extensive conversations with Orthodox theologians.  </p>
<p>I know that in the past Orthodox polemicists have sometimes accused Catholics of artolatry, because of the practice of genuflecting to the bread and cup before the Epiclesis.  An Orthodox monk raised this objection with me in conversation a few years before I became Catholic, but it does not appear to be a serious contemporary Orthodox concern about Catholic liturgical practice.</p>
<p>And of course, a millennium ago the Orthodox vehemently objected to the Catholic use of unleavened bread  for the Eucharist; I have not run across this objection in contemporary Orthodox literature though.  I wonder if this concern has been raised in Orthodox/Armenian conversations.      </p>
<p>Legitimate questions can, of course, be raised about certain expressions of extra-liturgical eucharistic devotion.  I was too deeply formed in Anglicanism not to find myself still feeling a bit uneasy about public Corpus Christi processions, though I feel no uneasiness about Benediction, which I find profoundly moving.   </p>
<p>The Orthodox reserve the Blessed Sacrament, but they do not direct any prayer or devotion to the reserved elements.  I have wondered why and have speculated that Eastern Christians have never felt a personal need for such prayer because the visual aspects of devotion are so powerfully fulfilled by the presence and use of icons.  Unfortunately, icon devotion never took root in the West.  Just a speculation on my part.  </p>
<p>If an Orthodox believer were to visit a Catholic parish where the Blessed Sacrament is exhibited for adoration, prayer, and intercession, would he/she really find this practice objectionable?  Perhaps some would, but most, I think, would not.  They might find it alien to their own experience, but I do not think they would raise principled objections to it.</p>
<p>But whatever objections Orthodox theologians might raise about Catholic extra-liturgical devotional practices, surely Catholics and Orthodox are one in their conviction that *within* the liturgy, the sacramental Christ is properly adored and reverenced.  I remember the first time I attended an Orthodox Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified.  When the Blessed Sacrament was brought out in procession, members of the congregation prostrated themselves in adoration.  I think many contemporary Catholics could learn a great deal from the Orthodox on how to properly adore the sacred Body and precious Blood.</p>
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