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	<title>Comments on: Scooping Out the Moon</title>
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	<description>Serving the joyful cultivation of the theological craft for the life of the church: inquiring honestly, deliberating wisely, acting faithfully</description>
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		<title>By: Catatter Fish</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-20297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Catatter Fish]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2010 01:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-20297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[brettongarcia:

I would like to respond to your entire post, but only have time for one quick thing. Your worry about the wisdom of God from the Spirit being immune to the critique of reason seems to stem from perhaps a misunderstanding of what it means to have &#039;foolish&#039; wisdom in comparison to that of the &#039;world&#039;. 

Worldly wisdom is that which tells you to gather wealth. While Godly wisdom tells you the riches you gather are not of ultimate concern and will not last. 

The world tells us to fight back, while Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek; to be blessed in sorrows, while others curse them; to find strength in weakness, and so forth. This is the difference between worldly wisdom and the wisdom of God. It can be critiqued rationally. If, for example, you feel the Spirit is telling you to build concentration camps, you can critique that and say &quot;That&#039;s not what my bible and experience with God has led me to believe...&quot;, can&#039;t you? I think you can.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brettongarcia:</p>
<p>I would like to respond to your entire post, but only have time for one quick thing. Your worry about the wisdom of God from the Spirit being immune to the critique of reason seems to stem from perhaps a misunderstanding of what it means to have &#8216;foolish&#8217; wisdom in comparison to that of the &#8216;world&#8217;. </p>
<p>Worldly wisdom is that which tells you to gather wealth. While Godly wisdom tells you the riches you gather are not of ultimate concern and will not last. </p>
<p>The world tells us to fight back, while Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek; to be blessed in sorrows, while others curse them; to find strength in weakness, and so forth. This is the difference between worldly wisdom and the wisdom of God. It can be critiqued rationally. If, for example, you feel the Spirit is telling you to build concentration camps, you can critique that and say &#8220;That&#8217;s not what my bible and experience with God has led me to believe&#8230;&#8221;, can&#8217;t you? I think you can.</p>
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		<title>By: brettongarcia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19846</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brettongarcia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 19:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But what about the subjectivity of the human individual?  Barth seems to have no place for God in a man as such.  In man we have only some kind of meta-&quot;potential&quot; or receptivity for a God who is quite different from human nature; and who comes to us only late, probably after birth, as &quot;event.&quot;  

Barth seems to dislike man-vs-God, or body v. spirit (&quot;Carteisan&quot;?) dualism.  But his own comments presuppose it. They recall the (semi-) biblical notion that humans are by nature depraved, and cannot save themselves by their own &quot;works.&quot;  But are only saved when one day, a God who is rather wholly different in nature from man,  extends or attaches himself, his spirit, into our lives, in a moment of Grace.  

Barth is therefore still Cartesian-dualistic himself.  He is still himself implying among other things, that our nature as man, is quite different from (and all but dualistically opposed to) God; and has almost nothing of God in it.  God comes later, being moreover 1) absolutely different in nature from man, dualistically.  And 2) probably arriving only some time after our birth, in the salvific &quot;event.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But what about the subjectivity of the human individual?  Barth seems to have no place for God in a man as such.  In man we have only some kind of meta-&#8221;potential&#8221; or receptivity for a God who is quite different from human nature; and who comes to us only late, probably after birth, as &#8220;event.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Barth seems to dislike man-vs-God, or body v. spirit (&#8220;Carteisan&#8221;?) dualism.  But his own comments presuppose it. They recall the (semi-) biblical notion that humans are by nature depraved, and cannot save themselves by their own &#8220;works.&#8221;  But are only saved when one day, a God who is rather wholly different in nature from man,  extends or attaches himself, his spirit, into our lives, in a moment of Grace.  </p>
<p>Barth is therefore still Cartesian-dualistic himself.  He is still himself implying among other things, that our nature as man, is quite different from (and all but dualistically opposed to) God; and has almost nothing of God in it.  God comes later, being moreover 1) absolutely different in nature from man, dualistically.  And 2) probably arriving only some time after our birth, in the salvific &#8220;event.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Howard</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19841</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roy Howard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 16:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19841</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Kent on the length of the post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Kent on the length of the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Howard</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19835</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roy Howard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 03:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19835</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hear this as a summons to modesty and humility on the preacher who offers a sermon knowing that it is God alone who is the both subject and object of the sermon.  One who takes this seriously adopts a self-deflecting posture in preaching, the consequence of which is to point toward God&#039;s gracious action.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear this as a summons to modesty and humility on the preacher who offers a sermon knowing that it is God alone who is the both subject and object of the sermon.  One who takes this seriously adopts a self-deflecting posture in preaching, the consequence of which is to point toward God&#8217;s gracious action.</p>
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		<title>By: Around the watercooler &#171; scientia et sapientia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19779</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Around the watercooler &#171; scientia et sapientia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 03:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Duby has an excellent post on understanding Barth on receiving the Word of God. He does a very nice job unpacking what Barth means when he says that receiving the Word is an [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Duby has an excellent post on understanding Barth on receiving the Word of God. He does a very nice job unpacking what Barth means when he says that receiving the Word is an [...]</p>
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		<title>By: brettongarcia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19750</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brettongarcia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 11:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John:

Maybe your temporary adoption of the word &quot;oblique&quot; gets at the major problem I see with Barth.  He is obviously the master of the classic &quot;poetic&quot; style; which is to say, of a (to be sure, classic, even biblical) theological style, that never firmly says any one thing, but that is perpetually oblique, evasive, ambiguous, polysemic, and equivocal.  

Probably the positive virtue of this style, is that ultimate truth,&quot;God,&quot; is infinitely complex; and therefore we need to avoid typifying him in all-too-simple utterances.  Still, on the other hand, regarding a style where &quot;blessed are the poor&quot; might mean that 1) being poor is good as such; or might mean the opposite?  That 2) the poor are about to be blessed ...by becoming rich? 

Or here.  Is Barth 1) merely repeating a preachers&#039; cliche:   bemoaning our lack of native/&quot;subjective&quot; ability to apprehend (or even create?) God; a gift which is &quot;grant&quot;ed only by the Grace of God?  Or is he 2) about to hint later that however, even classic theology (and even God?) fails us?  Since God never understood us, and never corrected our subjectivity?  

Utlimately, the classic poetic style - that simultanously entertains even exactly opposite conclusions - while useful in that it evades dogmatic oversimplifications, is still reprehensible, in that it ultimately says nothing at all.  It cancels itself in 1) obscurity, and even 2) by self contradiction. And it therefore cannot be used as a positive guide through life.   

The very greatest virtue of the poetic style is, at best, the cancellation of all simplistic, univocal dogmatism about god.  Or is its greatest virtue, its own self-cancelation/deconstruction?  The disappearance of both theology and God too, by way of indecision, or obvious self-contradiction?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>Maybe your temporary adoption of the word &#8220;oblique&#8221; gets at the major problem I see with Barth.  He is obviously the master of the classic &#8220;poetic&#8221; style; which is to say, of a (to be sure, classic, even biblical) theological style, that never firmly says any one thing, but that is perpetually oblique, evasive, ambiguous, polysemic, and equivocal.  </p>
<p>Probably the positive virtue of this style, is that ultimate truth,&#8221;God,&#8221; is infinitely complex; and therefore we need to avoid typifying him in all-too-simple utterances.  Still, on the other hand, regarding a style where &#8220;blessed are the poor&#8221; might mean that 1) being poor is good as such; or might mean the opposite?  That 2) the poor are about to be blessed &#8230;by becoming rich? </p>
<p>Or here.  Is Barth 1) merely repeating a preachers&#8217; cliche:   bemoaning our lack of native/&#8221;subjective&#8221; ability to apprehend (or even create?) God; a gift which is &#8220;grant&#8221;ed only by the Grace of God?  Or is he 2) about to hint later that however, even classic theology (and even God?) fails us?  Since God never understood us, and never corrected our subjectivity?  </p>
<p>Utlimately, the classic poetic style &#8211; that simultanously entertains even exactly opposite conclusions &#8211; while useful in that it evades dogmatic oversimplifications, is still reprehensible, in that it ultimately says nothing at all.  It cancels itself in 1) obscurity, and even 2) by self contradiction. And it therefore cannot be used as a positive guide through life.   </p>
<p>The very greatest virtue of the poetic style is, at best, the cancellation of all simplistic, univocal dogmatism about god.  Or is its greatest virtue, its own self-cancelation/deconstruction?  The disappearance of both theology and God too, by way of indecision, or obvious self-contradiction?</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 07:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An oblique criticism of Barth.

He was obviously a drug (tobacco) addict.

Every time he sucked on his pipe (like a child sucking its thumb) he was drawing toxic poisons into his lungs, and hence into his body altogether.

By doing so he was slowly and systematically undermining his health and destroying his body. In effect committing suicide.

Do you think that anyone to whom The Divine was or is an all-pervading  Living Reality would be actively (and effectively) destroying his body?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An oblique criticism of Barth.</p>
<p>He was obviously a drug (tobacco) addict.</p>
<p>Every time he sucked on his pipe (like a child sucking its thumb) he was drawing toxic poisons into his lungs, and hence into his body altogether.</p>
<p>By doing so he was slowly and systematically undermining his health and destroying his body. In effect committing suicide.</p>
<p>Do you think that anyone to whom The Divine was or is an all-pervading  Living Reality would be actively (and effectively) destroying his body?</p>
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		<title>By: brettongarcia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19717</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brettongarcia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 21:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19717</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Barth isn&#039;t trendy?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barth isn&#8217;t trendy?</p>
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		<title>By: Cabe Matthews</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19701</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cabe Matthews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 14:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19701</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great post. There is certainly a strong tendency toward celebrity worship in contemporary evangelicalism. This is bunk. Should Christians even have a category for &#039;trendy&#039; things?

For Barth, preachers are really only preaching insofar as they are pointing, like John the Baptist, at Jesus and saying, &quot;He must increase; I must decrease.&quot; Many evangelical celebrity preachers claim to be working at that project, but the things that they do often speak otherwise. They are very talented, but have they traded in the mustard seed for their ability to create their own coconuts?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. There is certainly a strong tendency toward celebrity worship in contemporary evangelicalism. This is bunk. Should Christians even have a category for &#8216;trendy&#8217; things?</p>
<p>For Barth, preachers are really only preaching insofar as they are pointing, like John the Baptist, at Jesus and saying, &#8220;He must increase; I must decrease.&#8221; Many evangelical celebrity preachers claim to be working at that project, but the things that they do often speak otherwise. They are very talented, but have they traded in the mustard seed for their ability to create their own coconuts?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Duby</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/scooping-out-the-moon/#comment-19603</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Duby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 18:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3518#comment-19603</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The statement that there was nothing in it for me should often read that I was not ready to let anything be said to me.&quot;  That&#039;s a sobering sentence!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The statement that there was nothing in it for me should often read that I was not ready to let anything be said to me.&#8221;  That&#8217;s a sobering sentence!</p>
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