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	<title>Comments on: Perspicuity and Postmodernity</title>
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	<description>Serving the joyful cultivation of the theological craft for the life of the church: inquiring honestly, deliberating wisely, acting faithfully</description>
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		<title>By: brettongarcia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21637</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brettongarcia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim R.:

Seems like a pretty good start.  


Steven Duby:

Would you like to respond to this?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim R.:</p>
<p>Seems like a pretty good start.  </p>
<p>Steven Duby:</p>
<p>Would you like to respond to this?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Reitman</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21635</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Reitman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21635</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, Brett . . . that was really clear and refreshingly succinct!  Thank you for making that effort; I really feel you heard me and honored me in the discussion.

In response to your first two questions, the answer is a definite and emphatic &quot;No. &quot;  I would move in exactly the opposite direction from a &quot;rules&quot; or &quot;plain&quot; or &quot;simple&quot; or &quot;obvious&quot; notion when I speak of perspicuity.  In fact, such an approach to the perspicuity of Scripture typically only leads to more &quot;constraint&quot; or false sense of &quot;obligation&quot; or downright &quot;slavery&quot; to the letter of the text.

To the rest of your comments I give a hearty &quot;Yes!&quot; in just the way you framed it, &quot;...ultimately accessible, liberation or salvation.&quot;  My only qualification would be:  &quot;salvation&quot; understood &lt;i&gt;three-dimensionally&lt;/i&gt; and not merely the shop-worn sense of &lt;i&gt;justification&lt;/i&gt; that we evangelicals so typically obsess about.

Sailhamer IMO simply makes the &lt;i&gt;more complex; more “literary” or “poetic” or selfdeconstructive&lt;/i&gt; &quot;cookies&quot; more accessible to those less familiar with hermeneutical terminology, yet he &lt;i&gt;liberally&lt;/i&gt; quotes the original Latin and German as he develops his case historically in his well-conceived and thoughtful footnotes, esp. for those who suspect he may be using smoke and mirrors.  In this light, your notion of &quot;selfdeconstructive&quot; is especially well handled in the way he conceives the composition of the Pentateuch and the &quot;apparent contradictions&quot; therein.

In response to Steve, if I understand you correctly (Brett), I would therefore hear Brett saying &quot;selfdeconstructive&quot; in this sense:  God&#039;s revelation is given &quot;historically&quot; to the people of God in a particular context and time in a way that reflects His character in direct response to their need for deliverance in that context.  This particular revelation will need &quot;deconstruction&quot; for subsequent generations of the people of God with progressive revelation when they face an evolving context in &quot;history,&quot; but the composition and compilation of the text (i.e., canonical ordering and placement of literary &quot;seams&quot;) takes into consideration this &quot;adaptation&quot; throughout the history of these people, as the final form of the text takes shape under the guidance of God.  I think it is not too presumptuous to call that process &quot;selfdeconstruction&quot; and still see perspicuity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Brett . . . that was really clear and refreshingly succinct!  Thank you for making that effort; I really feel you heard me and honored me in the discussion.</p>
<p>In response to your first two questions, the answer is a definite and emphatic &#8220;No. &#8221;  I would move in exactly the opposite direction from a &#8220;rules&#8221; or &#8220;plain&#8221; or &#8220;simple&#8221; or &#8220;obvious&#8221; notion when I speak of perspicuity.  In fact, such an approach to the perspicuity of Scripture typically only leads to more &#8220;constraint&#8221; or false sense of &#8220;obligation&#8221; or downright &#8220;slavery&#8221; to the letter of the text.</p>
<p>To the rest of your comments I give a hearty &#8220;Yes!&#8221; in just the way you framed it, &#8220;&#8230;ultimately accessible, liberation or salvation.&#8221;  My only qualification would be:  &#8220;salvation&#8221; understood <i>three-dimensionally</i> and not merely the shop-worn sense of <i>justification</i> that we evangelicals so typically obsess about.</p>
<p>Sailhamer IMO simply makes the <i>more complex; more “literary” or “poetic” or selfdeconstructive</i> &#8220;cookies&#8221; more accessible to those less familiar with hermeneutical terminology, yet he <i>liberally</i> quotes the original Latin and German as he develops his case historically in his well-conceived and thoughtful footnotes, esp. for those who suspect he may be using smoke and mirrors.  In this light, your notion of &#8220;selfdeconstructive&#8221; is especially well handled in the way he conceives the composition of the Pentateuch and the &#8220;apparent contradictions&#8221; therein.</p>
<p>In response to Steve, if I understand you correctly (Brett), I would therefore hear Brett saying &#8220;selfdeconstructive&#8221; in this sense:  God&#8217;s revelation is given &#8220;historically&#8221; to the people of God in a particular context and time in a way that reflects His character in direct response to their need for deliverance in that context.  This particular revelation will need &#8220;deconstruction&#8221; for subsequent generations of the people of God with progressive revelation when they face an evolving context in &#8220;history,&#8221; but the composition and compilation of the text (i.e., canonical ordering and placement of literary &#8220;seams&#8221;) takes into consideration this &#8220;adaptation&#8221; throughout the history of these people, as the final form of the text takes shape under the guidance of God.  I think it is not too presumptuous to call that process &#8220;selfdeconstruction&#8221; and still see perspicuity.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Duby</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21634</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Duby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure if you&#039;re saying that my take on the perspicuity of Scripture is what comes after the colon above, but I&#039;m not able to find my viewed summed up in what you&#039;ve said.  Yes, the Bible has its literary and poetic subtleties, but I&#039;m not sure what you mean by &quot;self-deconstructive&quot; and I hold that both the salvation described in the Bible and the description of it in the Bible (res significata and modus significandi alike) are accessible.  However, as I commented above, this in no way strips away the need for rigorous exegetical work and it doesn&#039;t mean that every part of every text is straightforwardly grasped by the reader.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if you&#8217;re saying that my take on the perspicuity of Scripture is what comes after the colon above, but I&#8217;m not able to find my viewed summed up in what you&#8217;ve said.  Yes, the Bible has its literary and poetic subtleties, but I&#8217;m not sure what you mean by &#8220;self-deconstructive&#8221; and I hold that both the salvation described in the Bible and the description of it in the Bible (res significata and modus significandi alike) are accessible.  However, as I commented above, this in no way strips away the need for rigorous exegetical work and it doesn&#8217;t mean that every part of every text is straightforwardly grasped by the reader.</p>
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		<title>By: Brettongarcia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brettongarcia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim:

The &quot;final&quot; form of the Bible I find particularly interesting and liberating. But is it &quot;perspicuous&quot; in the sense of being &quot;plain&quot;; in the sense of being simple?  Does the final form, outline a few simple, traditional rules for life?   

James Barr and Richard Bauckham both at least once referred to the &quot;literary&quot; or poetically polysemous or metaphorical  - or complex - quality of the Bible (&quot;Interpretation,&quot; Ox. Comp. to the Bible, p. 320; also &quot;2 Peter,&quot; p. 586.)  

In its &quot;final&quot; form especially (say in the RSV or NIV?), I likewise don&#039;t find the Bible to be particularly &quot;perspicacious&quot; in the sense of being a) &quot;plain&quot; or simple. I instead find b) it to be &quot;perspicuous&quot; in Duby&#039;s sense:   of being more complex; more &quot;literary&quot; or &quot;poetic&quot; or selfdeconstructive.  But offering through this more complex means, a final, difficult, more complex, but ultimately accessible, liberation or salvation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim:</p>
<p>The &#8220;final&#8221; form of the Bible I find particularly interesting and liberating. But is it &#8220;perspicuous&#8221; in the sense of being &#8220;plain&#8221;; in the sense of being simple?  Does the final form, outline a few simple, traditional rules for life?   </p>
<p>James Barr and Richard Bauckham both at least once referred to the &#8220;literary&#8221; or poetically polysemous or metaphorical  &#8211; or complex &#8211; quality of the Bible (&#8220;Interpretation,&#8221; Ox. Comp. to the Bible, p. 320; also &#8220;2 Peter,&#8221; p. 586.)  </p>
<p>In its &#8220;final&#8221; form especially (say in the RSV or NIV?), I likewise don&#8217;t find the Bible to be particularly &#8220;perspicacious&#8221; in the sense of being a) &#8220;plain&#8221; or simple. I instead find b) it to be &#8220;perspicuous&#8221; in Duby&#8217;s sense:   of being more complex; more &#8220;literary&#8221; or &#8220;poetic&#8221; or selfdeconstructive.  But offering through this more complex means, a final, difficult, more complex, but ultimately accessible, liberation or salvation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Reitman</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21618</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Reitman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21618</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What box?  Kent, I certainly did not just blithely assume that &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; embraced the presuppositions I was concerned about and I apologize if that was the impression I gave---I freely admit I don&#039;t know the source of your skepticism about the sufficiency of the final form of the text for biblical interpretation.  My point was only to underscore one &lt;i&gt;quite prevalent&lt;/i&gt; source of skepticism and offer what I see as a valid model worthy of more confidence.  If this model can also encourage those whose skepticism arises from &lt;i&gt;other&lt;/i&gt; concerns than those I mentioned, it will be because &lt;i&gt;res ipsa loquitur&lt;/i&gt;, not just because I &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; it.

Hope your enjoying your holiday!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What box?  Kent, I certainly did not just blithely assume that <i>you</i> embraced the presuppositions I was concerned about and I apologize if that was the impression I gave&#8212;I freely admit I don&#8217;t know the source of your skepticism about the sufficiency of the final form of the text for biblical interpretation.  My point was only to underscore one <i>quite prevalent</i> source of skepticism and offer what I see as a valid model worthy of more confidence.  If this model can also encourage those whose skepticism arises from <i>other</i> concerns than those I mentioned, it will be because <i>res ipsa loquitur</i>, not just because I <i>think</i> it.</p>
<p>Hope your enjoying your holiday!</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Eilers</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kent Eilers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let&#039;s keep the dialogue going on this in the future. Just don&#039;t put me in a box too quickly. Agreed?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s keep the dialogue going on this in the future. Just don&#8217;t put me in a box too quickly. Agreed?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Reitman</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21613</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Reitman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, Kent, I gathered that is where you&#039;ve been leaning from previous comments you&#039;ve made on TF.  But I&#039;m concerned about the modern/postmodern erosion of confidence in Scripture and appreciate Steve&#039;s questions on this post.  Is &quot;confidence&quot; in Scripture really warranted, and if so, &lt;i&gt;what kind&lt;/i&gt; of confidence?  The extended dialogue we had on TF with Kenton Sparks about his &lt;i&gt;God&#039;s Word in Human Words&lt;/i&gt; raised the same kinds of thorny issues about &quot;science/archaeology&quot; and the reliability of Scripture that Brettongarcia has been pestering us with lately.  It&#039;s so hard to wade through his verbiage, I can&#039;t tell whether he embraces Sparks&#039; flavor of &quot;critical realism&quot; or something more nuanced, although it seems he has &quot;given away the store&quot; to science; he is certainly not alone, and with Sparks we all but totally lose our theological compass in Scripture: What, if anything, can you trust?

In that thread with Sparks, we surfaced at least one  hermeneutical crux in this regard: the analogy between the Passover/Exodus and the work of Christ (1 Cor 5:7); i.e., if the former never occurred in any historically meaningful way, how was Israel&#039;s faith in God legitimately grounded?  I&#039;m convinced that there is a good &quot;answer&quot; to Sparks&#039; thesis that allows us to place a great deal more confidence in the &quot;final form&quot; of the text of Scripture, and I think Sailhamer has produced a very effective &quot;shot across the bow&quot; in this regard in &lt;i&gt;The Meaning of the Pentateuch&lt;/i&gt;, even though that was not his ostensible purpose.  It is really well done, IMHO, with a particularly good defense of authorial intent as a manifest &quot;intelligent design&quot; in both composition and compilation of the texts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Kent, I gathered that is where you&#8217;ve been leaning from previous comments you&#8217;ve made on TF.  But I&#8217;m concerned about the modern/postmodern erosion of confidence in Scripture and appreciate Steve&#8217;s questions on this post.  Is &#8220;confidence&#8221; in Scripture really warranted, and if so, <i>what kind</i> of confidence?  The extended dialogue we had on TF with Kenton Sparks about his <i>God&#8217;s Word in Human Words</i> raised the same kinds of thorny issues about &#8220;science/archaeology&#8221; and the reliability of Scripture that Brettongarcia has been pestering us with lately.  It&#8217;s so hard to wade through his verbiage, I can&#8217;t tell whether he embraces Sparks&#8217; flavor of &#8220;critical realism&#8221; or something more nuanced, although it seems he has &#8220;given away the store&#8221; to science; he is certainly not alone, and with Sparks we all but totally lose our theological compass in Scripture: What, if anything, can you trust?</p>
<p>In that thread with Sparks, we surfaced at least one  hermeneutical crux in this regard: the analogy between the Passover/Exodus and the work of Christ (1 Cor 5:7); i.e., if the former never occurred in any historically meaningful way, how was Israel&#8217;s faith in God legitimately grounded?  I&#8217;m convinced that there is a good &#8220;answer&#8221; to Sparks&#8217; thesis that allows us to place a great deal more confidence in the &#8220;final form&#8221; of the text of Scripture, and I think Sailhamer has produced a very effective &#8220;shot across the bow&#8221; in this regard in <i>The Meaning of the Pentateuch</i>, even though that was not his ostensible purpose.  It is really well done, IMHO, with a particularly good defense of authorial intent as a manifest &#8220;intelligent design&#8221; in both composition and compilation of the texts.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Eilers</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21611</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kent Eilers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim, I haven&#039;t read it, but I find myself increasingly less sure that searching about for the authorially intended meaning &quot;embedded in the final form of the text&quot; is the only (or even the best) way to construe the sum and total of biblical interpretation. This is a conversation for another day though; I&#039;m on holiday.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I haven&#8217;t read it, but I find myself increasingly less sure that searching about for the authorially intended meaning &#8220;embedded in the final form of the text&#8221; is the only (or even the best) way to construe the sum and total of biblical interpretation. This is a conversation for another day though; I&#8217;m on holiday.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Reitman</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21593</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Reitman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m reading Sailhamer&#039;s opus magnum released this year, &lt;i&gt;The Meaning of the Pentateuch&lt;/i&gt;, which is as much an exercise in the perspicuity of Scripture as it is a study of the Pentateuch, per se.  I find his basic thesis fairly convincing, that when we look at authorial intent embedded in the inspired final form of the text, lots of confusing things seem to clear up.

Has anyone else read it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m reading Sailhamer&#8217;s opus magnum released this year, <i>The Meaning of the Pentateuch</i>, which is as much an exercise in the perspicuity of Scripture as it is a study of the Pentateuch, per se.  I find his basic thesis fairly convincing, that when we look at authorial intent embedded in the inspired final form of the text, lots of confusing things seem to clear up.</p>
<p>Has anyone else read it?</p>
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		<title>By: brettongarcia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/perspicuity-and-postmodernity/#comment-21584</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brettongarcia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3725#comment-21584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry for any digression.  To try to briefly tie my comments very directly, to the central topic here: here, I support aspects of &quot;Perspecuity,&quot; while giving my take on the four main, conventionally-recognized sub-issues relating to this topic.  Especially I support the 1) primacy of the Bible itself; but feel we need discussion on 2) the issue of &quot;Plainness.&quot;  As well I discuss the recognized, absolutely central issue of 3) the usefulness of our own, independent readings of the Bible; 4) particularly as versus, the churches.  

Though I have presented my own position on this, I hope I have tied it systematically and consistently, to the four major, recognized issues in scholarly discussion of the present blog subject:  to the problems and strengths, of &quot;Perspecuity.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for any digression.  To try to briefly tie my comments very directly, to the central topic here: here, I support aspects of &#8220;Perspecuity,&#8221; while giving my take on the four main, conventionally-recognized sub-issues relating to this topic.  Especially I support the 1) primacy of the Bible itself; but feel we need discussion on 2) the issue of &#8220;Plainness.&#8221;  As well I discuss the recognized, absolutely central issue of 3) the usefulness of our own, independent readings of the Bible; 4) particularly as versus, the churches.  </p>
<p>Though I have presented my own position on this, I hope I have tied it systematically and consistently, to the four major, recognized issues in scholarly discussion of the present blog subject:  to the problems and strengths, of &#8220;Perspecuity.&#8221;</p>
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