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	<title>Comments on: Defining Theosis</title>
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		<title>By: Perry Robinson</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-23256</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Perry Robinson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2010 17:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Myk Habets,

If all theological science must be a posteriori and so this implies the preclusion of the essence/energies distinction, that doesn’t seem to be proof that the e/e distinction is to be rejected. It only picks out those notions of what theology is that are incompatible with it. One could go the other way and argue that this is why theology is not a science.

You mention the communicable attributes but given the doctrine of divine simplicity it seems difficult to pry one set of attributes from the others. If God is simple in the way that most western writers have thought, then it doesn’t seem possible to communicate the attributes per se without communicating all of them. And further, attributes can’t be communicated since attributions are the things that get said and aren’t properties.

You write that the communicable attributes are to be experienced by post-consummation believers without absorption into the divine essence but I am not seeing any mechanics here to specify how exactly you hold off the unwanted consequence.

Glossing the account of Palamas as particularly platonic doesn’t seem plausible or helpful for a few reasons. First, Palamas’ primary aim was to secure the inclusion of matter in salvation, which is a very unPlatonic thing to do. Second, Palamas’ account bears no significant marks of radical development of a break with earlier accounts in say Maximus, Cyril, the Cappadocians or Athanasius.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Myk Habets,</p>
<p>If all theological science must be a posteriori and so this implies the preclusion of the essence/energies distinction, that doesn’t seem to be proof that the e/e distinction is to be rejected. It only picks out those notions of what theology is that are incompatible with it. One could go the other way and argue that this is why theology is not a science.</p>
<p>You mention the communicable attributes but given the doctrine of divine simplicity it seems difficult to pry one set of attributes from the others. If God is simple in the way that most western writers have thought, then it doesn’t seem possible to communicate the attributes per se without communicating all of them. And further, attributes can’t be communicated since attributions are the things that get said and aren’t properties.</p>
<p>You write that the communicable attributes are to be experienced by post-consummation believers without absorption into the divine essence but I am not seeing any mechanics here to specify how exactly you hold off the unwanted consequence.</p>
<p>Glossing the account of Palamas as particularly platonic doesn’t seem plausible or helpful for a few reasons. First, Palamas’ primary aim was to secure the inclusion of matter in salvation, which is a very unPlatonic thing to do. Second, Palamas’ account bears no significant marks of radical development of a break with earlier accounts in say Maximus, Cyril, the Cappadocians or Athanasius.</p>
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		<title>By: Brettongarcia</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-23077</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brettongarcia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3827#comment-23077</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For various practical reasons, I often limit myself to Biblical theology.  So I&#039;m interested in what the Bible itself might say on this.

1) But first, a note on our English word:  I&#039;m not sure &quot;deification&quot; is the best, most unambiguous translation for &quot;theosis&quot;; partially since deification probably a) most often refers to the profess not of becoming a god oneself, but b) designating something or someone else, as our god.

2) In any case, &quot;theosis&quot; might indeed seem oriental and be offensive, if seen as so designating our selves, or other mere humans as god.  (Though this process is not unknown among kings, &quot;lord&quot;s).  There though, it would reflect a vanity in fact well known among oriental potentates (and some would say, Popes and Patriarches, Metropolitans).

3) Fortunately in any case, there is a gentler, less presumptuous formulation, that may be biblical:  Jesus himself says that a) he is &quot;one with&quot; the Father; while b) we in turn are invited to become one with, or be &quot;in,&quot; Jesus.  So that we might be unified, one with, &quot;in&quot;God, in this way.  By way interestingly enough, of the trinity.  But to become perhaps part of, the &quot;One.&quot;  

4) Normally to be sure, to avoid presumptuousness, the sin of vanity, this is best thought of as an ideal and practically unattainable goal.  Rather than as a common achievement.

5) And it is perhaps thought of rather as us attempting to become &quot;part of&quot; or &quot;in&quot; God; rather than being one and the same as, or as great as, him.  In Venn Diagram terms; as aiming to be just a small circle, but one wholly within a much larger circle.

6) In some ways, it is no more or less mysterious than the way that a &quot;mere&quot; human being of &quot;flesh,&quot; Jesus, manages still somehow to be considered one with God.  Jesus among other things, completely subsuming his personhood, within the larger sphere.

The Bible itself might therefore, allow ordinary people to attain some kind of &quot;theosis&quot;; even being &quot;one with&quot; or &quot;in&quot; God.  

7) Elsewhere in fact, the Bible even seems to allow that &quot;you are all gods,&quot; or &quot;sons of God.&quot;

Is this of any help? Or all too well known to everyone here?  Or in need of some modifications?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For various practical reasons, I often limit myself to Biblical theology.  So I&#8217;m interested in what the Bible itself might say on this.</p>
<p>1) But first, a note on our English word:  I&#8217;m not sure &#8220;deification&#8221; is the best, most unambiguous translation for &#8220;theosis&#8221;; partially since deification probably a) most often refers to the profess not of becoming a god oneself, but b) designating something or someone else, as our god.</p>
<p>2) In any case, &#8220;theosis&#8221; might indeed seem oriental and be offensive, if seen as so designating our selves, or other mere humans as god.  (Though this process is not unknown among kings, &#8220;lord&#8221;s).  There though, it would reflect a vanity in fact well known among oriental potentates (and some would say, Popes and Patriarches, Metropolitans).</p>
<p>3) Fortunately in any case, there is a gentler, less presumptuous formulation, that may be biblical:  Jesus himself says that a) he is &#8220;one with&#8221; the Father; while b) we in turn are invited to become one with, or be &#8220;in,&#8221; Jesus.  So that we might be unified, one with, &#8220;in&#8221;God, in this way.  By way interestingly enough, of the trinity.  But to become perhaps part of, the &#8220;One.&#8221;  </p>
<p>4) Normally to be sure, to avoid presumptuousness, the sin of vanity, this is best thought of as an ideal and practically unattainable goal.  Rather than as a common achievement.</p>
<p>5) And it is perhaps thought of rather as us attempting to become &#8220;part of&#8221; or &#8220;in&#8221; God; rather than being one and the same as, or as great as, him.  In Venn Diagram terms; as aiming to be just a small circle, but one wholly within a much larger circle.</p>
<p>6) In some ways, it is no more or less mysterious than the way that a &#8220;mere&#8221; human being of &#8220;flesh,&#8221; Jesus, manages still somehow to be considered one with God.  Jesus among other things, completely subsuming his personhood, within the larger sphere.</p>
<p>The Bible itself might therefore, allow ordinary people to attain some kind of &#8220;theosis&#8221;; even being &#8220;one with&#8221; or &#8220;in&#8221; God.  </p>
<p>7) Elsewhere in fact, the Bible even seems to allow that &#8220;you are all gods,&#8221; or &#8220;sons of God.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is this of any help? Or all too well known to everyone here?  Or in need of some modifications?</p>
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		<title>By: I-Don't-Know-What</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22976</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[I-Don't-Know-What]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 11:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3827#comment-22976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Who would care what St. John of the Cross wrote?  See, and I thought you guys had no sense of humor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who would care what St. John of the Cross wrote?  See, and I thought you guys had no sense of humor.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Strobel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Strobel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 02:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3827#comment-22965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Myk, I&#039;m glad you&#039;re going to finally get something out there! I look forward to the new stuff. 

In terms of Edwards, I actually don&#039;t think the Platonic characterization is fair. There are, certainly, broad neo-platonic textures to his theology, but I don&#039;t think that drives his theology or provide the real content for it. Interestingly, in his letter in response to the Religious Affections, where he defends his use of &quot;nature&quot; is almost an exact quote of Basil. 

Horton talks about the essence/energies distinction in Covenant and Salvation. I don&#039;t have it with me right now, but it should be in the index. When I can I&#039;ll see if I can get the page numbers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Myk, I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;re going to finally get something out there! I look forward to the new stuff. </p>
<p>In terms of Edwards, I actually don&#8217;t think the Platonic characterization is fair. There are, certainly, broad neo-platonic textures to his theology, but I don&#8217;t think that drives his theology or provide the real content for it. Interestingly, in his letter in response to the Religious Affections, where he defends his use of &#8220;nature&#8221; is almost an exact quote of Basil. </p>
<p>Horton talks about the essence/energies distinction in Covenant and Salvation. I don&#8217;t have it with me right now, but it should be in the index. When I can I&#8217;ll see if I can get the page numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Myk Habets</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22964</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Myk Habets]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 01:02:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3827#comment-22964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry some of these posts are out of syn - by Kyke - thanks for the advice! :-) Nice one. I won&#039;t get to do any real research between Feb - Nov this year :-(. So wish I had more time to think and write. But next year is shaping up well...Stay tuned for some excited ventures (well I think so anyway). 

Edwards on theosis - he is really interesting! I like Edwards for so many reasons. He is though, as is well known, a thorugh-going Platonist and so ghis doctrine (or is it merely a theme? Probably merely a theme) of theosis is Platonically shaped. Now he was no intellecutal slug (to understate the point) so he was able to incoporate his Platonism with Christian theology in a creative synthesis (but synthesis no less). So he speaks at times of theosis in the most ontological of ways. See pp 131ff of my Theosis book. As one reference to how strongly Edwards spoke of theosis note:

There is an interesting parallel in the doctrine of theōsis articulated by Jonathan Edwards in response to a clergyman’s objection that he taught that believers could participate in the divine essence, not simply in the divine nature: ‘A diamond or a crystal that is held forth in the sun’s beams may properly be said to have some of the sun’s brightness communicated to it; for though it hasn’t the same individual brightness with that which is inherent in the sun, and be immensely less in degree, yet it is something of the same nature,’ J. Edwards, Ethical Writings; The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 8, ed. P. Ramsey (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1989), 640 (see 636-640). 

It would be nice to do an article on Edwards&#039;s doctrine/theme of theosis soon.

Hey - the refernce to Horton liking theosis - could you provide that along with his liking of the essence-energies theology please? Seems odd to me that Horton would like this. I also note he is just finihsing off a major systematic theology.

Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry some of these posts are out of syn &#8211; by Kyke &#8211; thanks for the advice! :-) Nice one. I won&#8217;t get to do any real research between Feb &#8211; Nov this year :-(. So wish I had more time to think and write. But next year is shaping up well&#8230;Stay tuned for some excited ventures (well I think so anyway). </p>
<p>Edwards on theosis &#8211; he is really interesting! I like Edwards for so many reasons. He is though, as is well known, a thorugh-going Platonist and so ghis doctrine (or is it merely a theme? Probably merely a theme) of theosis is Platonically shaped. Now he was no intellecutal slug (to understate the point) so he was able to incoporate his Platonism with Christian theology in a creative synthesis (but synthesis no less). So he speaks at times of theosis in the most ontological of ways. See pp 131ff of my Theosis book. As one reference to how strongly Edwards spoke of theosis note:</p>
<p>There is an interesting parallel in the doctrine of theōsis articulated by Jonathan Edwards in response to a clergyman’s objection that he taught that believers could participate in the divine essence, not simply in the divine nature: ‘A diamond or a crystal that is held forth in the sun’s beams may properly be said to have some of the sun’s brightness communicated to it; for though it hasn’t the same individual brightness with that which is inherent in the sun, and be immensely less in degree, yet it is something of the same nature,’ J. Edwards, Ethical Writings; The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 8, ed. P. Ramsey (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1989), 640 (see 636-640). </p>
<p>It would be nice to do an article on Edwards&#8217;s doctrine/theme of theosis soon.</p>
<p>Hey &#8211; the refernce to Horton liking theosis &#8211; could you provide that along with his liking of the essence-energies theology please? Seems odd to me that Horton would like this. I also note he is just finihsing off a major systematic theology.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Strobel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Strobel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3827#comment-22963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know Torrance&#039;s theology of theosis at all, but am about to pick up Habets book. I doubt that they are similar for a variety of reasons. In terms of the essential doctrine issue, I think that the essential doctrine for EO&#039;s depiction of theosis is the incarnation, and I think that it is up in the air for other accounts. For Edwards, I think his doctrine of the Trinity does more work in this area than the incarnation as such - although the incarnation is not left out entirely. I am slowly working on an article on this, so hopefully I will have more time to work on that soon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know Torrance&#8217;s theology of theosis at all, but am about to pick up Habets book. I doubt that they are similar for a variety of reasons. In terms of the essential doctrine issue, I think that the essential doctrine for EO&#8217;s depiction of theosis is the incarnation, and I think that it is up in the air for other accounts. For Edwards, I think his doctrine of the Trinity does more work in this area than the incarnation as such &#8211; although the incarnation is not left out entirely. I am slowly working on an article on this, so hopefully I will have more time to work on that soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Geordie Ziegler</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22962</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geordie Ziegler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3827#comment-22962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a good and interesting point about &#039;static-ness&#039; and &#039;fluidity&#039; in various traditions.  So are you saying that the essential doctrine that theosis congeals around is the incarnation and how one parses that will determine the &#039;flavour&#039; of their theosis?  It seems that one&#039;s version of union with Christ will be deeply affected by one&#039;s understanding of the incarnation.  I&#039;m curious, does Edward&#039;s sort of theosis resemble that of Torrance, other than using some of the same terms perhaps?  If their doctrines of the incarnation are significantly different, then i would think not.  Just like a Horton version of theosis i believe would be fundamentally different than Torrance&#039;s.  

I think someone more clear on Reformed and EO distinctives would have to give a more informed answer to you though....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good and interesting point about &#8216;static-ness&#8217; and &#8216;fluidity&#8217; in various traditions.  So are you saying that the essential doctrine that theosis congeals around is the incarnation and how one parses that will determine the &#8216;flavour&#8217; of their theosis?  It seems that one&#8217;s version of union with Christ will be deeply affected by one&#8217;s understanding of the incarnation.  I&#8217;m curious, does Edward&#8217;s sort of theosis resemble that of Torrance, other than using some of the same terms perhaps?  If their doctrines of the incarnation are significantly different, then i would think not.  Just like a Horton version of theosis i believe would be fundamentally different than Torrance&#8217;s.  </p>
<p>I think someone more clear on Reformed and EO distinctives would have to give a more informed answer to you though&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Strobel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22960</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Strobel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Myk, I thought of some career advice I wanted to pass your way. You might considering trying to publish a bit to round out your c.v (!!!!!!!!!!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Myk, I thought of some career advice I wanted to pass your way. You might considering trying to publish a bit to round out your c.v (!!!!!!!!!!)</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Strobel</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22958</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Strobel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Geordie, my inclination is that a broadly Reformed theology has the most resources, outside of EO, for this kind of move, as well as, in a different way, Lutheran theology. But with the Reformed, unlike Lutheran and EO, you will find a the most disagreement as to how this functions. If I&#039;m right, it is no wonder that Theosis has never really been considered a Reformed doctrine. Take Edwards contra Torrance for instance: Edwards would deny his robust understanding of vicarious humanity, Edwards employs a conceptual parallel to the essence/energies distinction, but, at the same time, would be similar on the other points made by Myk. Horton could be another person brought into the discussion, who seems to like the idea of theosis as well as the essence/energies distinction. My inclination, and I could be wrong about this, is that the key doctrine here is the incarnation and how that is spelled out. If that is more static, as it is in EO (by static I mean that the doctrine is understood in the same way by all EO theologians - at least broadly), you are more likely to be able to talk about a doctrine like theosis with a great deal of consistency. If the doctrine of the incarnation is more fluid, particularly in terms of its scope, you are going to have a harder time talking about theosis consistently. 

What do you think? Am I right about that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geordie, my inclination is that a broadly Reformed theology has the most resources, outside of EO, for this kind of move, as well as, in a different way, Lutheran theology. But with the Reformed, unlike Lutheran and EO, you will find a the most disagreement as to how this functions. If I&#8217;m right, it is no wonder that Theosis has never really been considered a Reformed doctrine. Take Edwards contra Torrance for instance: Edwards would deny his robust understanding of vicarious humanity, Edwards employs a conceptual parallel to the essence/energies distinction, but, at the same time, would be similar on the other points made by Myk. Horton could be another person brought into the discussion, who seems to like the idea of theosis as well as the essence/energies distinction. My inclination, and I could be wrong about this, is that the key doctrine here is the incarnation and how that is spelled out. If that is more static, as it is in EO (by static I mean that the doctrine is understood in the same way by all EO theologians &#8211; at least broadly), you are more likely to be able to talk about a doctrine like theosis with a great deal of consistency. If the doctrine of the incarnation is more fluid, particularly in terms of its scope, you are going to have a harder time talking about theosis consistently. </p>
<p>What do you think? Am I right about that?</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby Grow</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/defining-theosis/#comment-22953</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bobby Grow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 01:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=3827#comment-22953</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And Geordie makes great sense!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Geordie makes great sense!</p>
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