Or in my more critical moments? I compare and contrast what I think the Bible says, against science and experience – or what “comes to pass” (Deut. 18.21), in real life. As a way of determining which reading of the Bible is best.

I follow the Bible; including its self-critical moments. When it warns of sins in its own authors. for example. And tells us therefore to “work out your own salvation.”

I can assure you I am not invoking Platonic dualism in my conceptualization of what you’re calling “layered salvation.” You are quite right that the OT promises entailed a full (tangible) inheritance in the land, and Jesus promised full (tangible) Kingdom inheritance in His invitation to follow Him—especially in Matthew. He never was pleased with “half-assed” followers but rather invited them to “eat my flesh and drink my blood” (cf. John 6).

Nevertheless, the invitation to thus abide in Him was predicated on the firm assurance that they indeed had His “anointing” and “seed” in them (1 Jn 2:12-27) once they received (= believed) the eyewitness testimony (1 John 1:1-4; 5:4-20) that is now preserved for us in Scripture. But even then, we have the very real prospect of censure at the Judgment Seat of Christ for those who do not abide in Him (1 Jn 2:28)—a warning transparently addressed to those whose sins were already forgiven for His name’s sake (2:12).

What I am proposing is a very tangible destiny for believers at the resurrection on Christ’s return, whether they abide or not, but co-inheritance is clearly contingent on perseverance—thus we have both heirs and co-heirs. But even if one were to collapse the two notions—like Bobby—where in the world do you read dualism into that construct? It is a continuum of tangible inheritance in glory for all believers, once everything that does not belong in the Kingdom has been burned off in Judgment at Christ’s return (“the day of the Lord”).

You asked “How EXACTLY is that?” when you quoted me out of context as saying “one way or another” in reference to salvation in Messiah. Jesus the promised Son is the only way to life. I was referring to the Holy Spirit’s authentication of the testimony of Jesus—which is clearly “various” and multifaceted (Heb 2:4). Don’t you believe the Holy Spirit is alive and well?

Unless you can bring specific passages to the table in context—whether intra- or intertextual—I don’t see where we have any epistemic common ground on which to spar over these issues. But of greater concern to me is why you even bother arguing if you can’t trust the Scriptural testimony? Do you believe ANY of the Bible’s testimony? Which parts? How do you know? You have no ground for assurance in that you clearly deny the perspicuity of Scripture, so what do you do? Try to be “good” and just cross your fingers that the Lord will honor your steadfast skepticism in this life? What kind of perseverance is that?

For example? It may be that those who truly identify, and follow with faith the right Christ or Messiah or Seed, will be saved in some strong way, in the End. However? Your proposal that the Bible signfies this right and true Christ, as the “name,” does not seem right. In light of say: “Many will come in my name,” but don’t believe them. THe “name” itself can be misleading.

Then too? The attempt to suggest that we are 1) saved in our “ultimate destiny,” but 2) not in our “inheritance,” seem to be quite illegitimately dualistic. Proposing that we might be saved,s ay, in Judgement, in say Heaven or spirit; but not in any physical way here on earth; in spirit, but not with an earthly kingdom. But? To divide salvation in this way – as admittedly Paul AT TIMES seems to want to do – contradicts the overall Bible. Which promises even “all” who are saved in any sense, a rather full salvation. Including salvation 1) not only in some ultimate or spiritual sense, but 2) also also salvation in the more physical and immediate sense of say, physical wonders, and a physical “kingdom.”

But especially? How EXACTLY is it that – you say merely “one way or another” – that those who have found the right idea of Christ, or the Messiah, will know it? Practical experience with religious folks, shows that many of them, with quite different beliefs, believe they have been assured, one way or another, of their saved status. And yet? They all believe somewhat different things. So that surely, some of them must be wrong; the feeling and signs of assurance that they felt they had, must have been misleading and false. Resort to the “name” does not help here, remember.

The attempt in much of Protestantism, to deal with apparently conflicting promises of salvation, by splitting our salvation in half, asserting it speaks of two parts or classes – roughly material inheritance, vs. ultimate or spiritual salvation? – was toyed with in the New Testament of Paul, especially. But it is finally not really true to the overall BIble itself. In particular, the problem seems a rather Greek/Platonic philosophical dualism. Which can in fact be seen in Paul, especially. Likely the split salvation, stems from a matter/spirit dualism, which seems to be willing to split the promises of Judeo-Christianity, into materialism vs. spirit. And then? To try to all but simply cancel the material promsies of God – a material kingdom, a material inheritance, material wonders – in favor of a future, ultimate, and solely spiritual reward.

And yet however, the God of the Bible clearly promised both, overall. And not one, or the other, separately.

I have been contemplating whether and how to reply because I’m not sure we are on enough of the same wavelength. But I want to honor your request, so my replies are again in bold after each of your points:

Most of your answers seem to assume that one WILL be saved, if only one has the right idea of Christ, and faithfully follows it. But how can anyone be sure, that they do know Christ accurately? That our idea of CHrist is not at least partially, false? So that all of us to some extent, are following a False CHrist?
Brett, my heart aches that you do not seem to have assurance of even your own destiny with God through Christ. The Biblical testimony of the promised Seed who will bring life after death is consistent from Genesis to Revelation. Anyone who believes that promise of life in the Seed has eternal life. For those who are seeking life but don’t have the Scriptures to attest the “right idea of Christ” when it is revealed to them, the Holy Spirit will authenticate the promise in one way or another.

Especially this seems inevitable, when we find that the Bible warns that nearly every element of Christianity – priests and prophets, saints and angels, even apostles – often sinned and erred. Even in their most inspired moments. Paul noting in 1 Corin for example, that the followers of Moses and God, had the rock, Christ himself, leading them. “And yet …they perished in the wilderness.”
The whole point of 1 Cor 10—and, indeed, the entire book of Hebrews—is that the people of God can fail to inherit the “promised land” when they fail to persevere in faith, yet they THEMSELVES will be “saved” in the fire of judgment (cf. 1 Cor 3:15). OF COURSE they “often sinned and erred”—the point is that “there is STILL a sabbath-rest for the people of God” (Heb 4:10), and INHERITANCE in that rest is contingent on perseverance in faith.

But suppose I put this aside. And make a simple compromise here: I might choose to say that 1) the first, priestly, reassuring Voice in the Bible, does more or less assure us that the Christ we know from church, or faith, is accurate enough; and merely following him, believing him “faith”fully, will save us in some way. Indeed, this makes a kind of common sense: being told to follow a moral figure, learning a little humility and love from him, does do a lot for us. However? 2) Experience later tells us, that simple loyal, faithful obedience, to even such authority,will not totally serve us, or save us, in every way; since the vision of Christ we have from many churches, is likely not entirely accurate. And therefore, following it faithfully, loyally … means that simply, we are following a false idea, all-too-faithfully, all-too-loyally. Therefore? THere is a sort of partial salvation, in simply, loyally following “Christ” as described in churches, say. But in the end? This salvation, that comes from following the “CHrist” of churches (and even saints) is not quite entirely “full” or complete enough.
I don’t accept your premise (1)—the Biblical testimony is that it is faith in the promise of life in the Seed that “will save us in some way,” not your notion of “following him, believing him ‘faith’fully…”; the latter is what we are invited to do in Christ, once we have believed the promise in order that we may preserve our full inheritance in Him. I don’t know what to do with your premise (2), as it seems to be predicated on some strands of non-biblical Roman doctrine rather than the plain testimony of Scripture I have already cited in this thread. What do you mean “experience later tells us”? . . . He never promised us a rose garden in this life (Heb 11).

Perhaps there is a sort of two-tiered salvation however. Perhaps the two voices in the Bible in fact, are composed 1) first, of the voice directed at “children.” This voice stressed the assuredness of salvation, through faith; and indeed, Children should learn to obediently follow and obey authorities, and their picture of God or Christ, faithfully. But? 2) Then a more critical, “mature” voice kicks in. As we become adults? We learn that after all, even adults and the very highest authorities make mistakes. And therefore? Our salvation is not in blindly, faithfully following authority. Not even authoritative ideas of “Christ.”
This notion has some potential depending on how we define terms. In one sense, I would agree, viz., (1) the Law was given to bring us to Christ and our identity in Him is eternally secure; but then (2) we are asked to “follow Him” and our inheritance with Him is then contingent on “abiding” or “walking kata pneuma”.

So that? When “Judgement” comes? Some people,w o believe they are faithful and ttrue followers of Christ, who think they are saved, and even saintly? Are in for an unpleasant surprise.
Yeah, Brett. This is true at so many levels, both for “unbelievers” and for the people of God. But I’m not sure we yet see eye-to-eye on the three-dimensional nature of that salvation—which aspects are assured and which are contingent on perseverance

Most of your answers seem to assume that one WILL be saved, if only one has the right idea of Christ, and faithfully follows it. But how can anyone be sure, that they do know Christ accurately? That our idea of CHrist is not at least partially, false? So that all of us to some extent, are following a False CHrist?

Especially this seems inevitable, when we find that the Bible warns that nearly every element of Christianity – priests and prophets, saints and angels, even apostles – often sinned and erred. Even in their most inspired moments. Paul noting in 1 Corin for example, that the followers of Moses and God, had the rock, Christ himself, leading them. “And yet …they perished in the wilderness.”

But suppose I put this aside. And make a simple compromise here: I might choose to say that 1) the first, priestly, reassuring Voice in the Bible, does more or less assure us that the Christ we know from church, or faith, is accurate enough; and merely following him, believing him “faith”fully, will save us in some way. Indeed, this makes a kind of common sense: being told to follow a moral figure, learning a little humility and love from him, does do a lot for us. However? 2) Experience later tells us, that simple loyal, faithful obedience, to even such authority,will not totally serve us, or save us, in every way; since the vision of Christ we have from many churches, is likely not entirely accurate. And therefore, following it faithfully, loyally … means that simply, we are following a false idea, all-too-faithfully, all-too-loyally. Therefore? THere is a sort of partial salvation, in simply, loyally following “Christ” as described in churches, say. But in the end? This salvation, that comes from following the “CHrist” of churches (and even saints) is not quite entirely “full” or complete enough.

Perhaps there is a sort of two-tiered salvation however. Perhaps the two voices in the Bible in fact, are composed 1) first, of the voice directed at “children.” This voice stressed the assuredness of salvation, through faith; and indeed, Children should learn to obediently follow and obey authorities, and their picture of God or Christ, faithfully. But? 2) Then a more critical, “mature” voice kicks in. As we become adults? We learn that after all, even adults and the very highest authorities make mistakes. And therefore? Our salvation is not in blindly, faithfully following authority. Not even authoritative ideas of “Christ.”

So that? When “Judgement” comes? Some people,w o believe they are faithful and ttrue followers of Christ, who think they are saved, and even saintly? Are in for an unpleasant surprise.

I might in other words, tentatively here, for discussion’s sake, adopt your notions of a two-tiered judgement, etc.. As slightly modified, above.

What do we do, to deal with the Two (Contradictory) Voices in the Bible’s text: the one that 1) warns about sins and errors in every aspect of Religion, even what is called Christianity; and the 2) one that seems to assure us that most (even all) of us who invoke the name of Christ, will be saved?
They aren’t contradictory—these warnings are for the most part to the people of God (see, e.g., 1 Pet 4:17), whose identity and ultimate destiny [only one aspect of their salvation] is secure, but whose inheritance [a related but distinct aspect of their salvation] is contingent on perseverance in faith. Regarding your use of “invoke” here, see my reply three paragraphs below.

To try to deal with the apparent contradiction, by asserting some kind of double action – like a two-phased Judgement. A 1) first condemning phase – but 2) then a final vindication. But that doesn’t quite work for me. Having heard 1,000 Reformed sermons, I’m not happy with this kind of solution.
How many times do I need to say I’m not Reformed in my views here: I don’t buy NT Wright’s “final vindication” as related to initial justification. For the people of God, both censure and vindication occur at the Judgment Seat of Christ—one phase, “whether bad or good” (Eccl 12:14; 2 Cor 5:10).

Rather, my solution would be to read the text more carefully. In a case like 1 Corin 1, where we are apparently assured that most of us who are “righteous” will be saved? Note that many are simply not righteous.
Righteous is multifaceted: positional (justification), progressive (overt display of the righteousness of God by continuing faith in this life, Rom 1:17), and prospective (co-inheritance in glory with Christ at his return, 8:17-19). Positional righteousness guarantees one’s identity and ultimate destiny, but co-inheritance is contingent on and vindicates the faithful display of God’s righteousness in this life. Unfaithful believers are heirs of God but not vindicated as co-heirs with Christ (2 Tim 2:11-13).

Or if one text seems to say that all those who call on “Christ,” will be saved? those who have “the Son” will assuredly have life? I would recall the warning voice from God … that many will THINK they have the son; and yet be mistaken; may be following a False Christ, or a false idea of Christ. So that many will quote and call on even the name of Christ, the “Lord, Lord”; and yet that will not be enough. Jesus will say he “knew them not”; they were either merely mouthing pities, or in any case were invoking his name, but did not follow the right idea of Christ.
I would suggest that when used in reference to Messiah, “name” always denotes his true identity. That would exclude any who follow false Christs. This is the whole point of the Luke 1-2 and all the early sermons in Acts: The Messianic promises were all fulfilled in the authenticated identity of the “named” Messiah, Jesus. Those who say “Lord, Lord . . .” in Matt 25 never knew him, so they apparently claimed obeisance to the wrong Messiah (see, e.g., Matt 24:23-28) and are accordingly called out for it.

It is nice to think that there is some special grace or gift in the Bible, that will absolutely protect us from the many sins in holy things, that the Bible warned about; errors in churches, in saints, and so forth. Like Grace. Or invoking the “name” of Christ. And yet? Though parts of the Bible seem to suggest that this or that special grace or gift will finally do it – some “anointing” or “blood” or “baptism”? Look up these special gifts in a concordance … and you will find that sooner or later the Bible itself warned that there will often be insufficiencies in each and every one of these allegedly saving gifts.
“Nice” . . . and fatal; I agree. Got no argument with you here, Brett, depending on what you mean by “invoking”; the Bible only vindicates believing on (not “invoking”) the name of Christ (= true identity) as meritorious. Meaninglessly mouthing the syllables without trusting the properly identified Messiah is worthless. And grace? Receive Jesus and you receive abundance of grace (Rom 5:17)..

So that I conclude? Those who feel all-to0 assured of their own salvation, are mistaken. Religion, Christianity, contains thousands of pitfalls. Even those who invoke anointing, angels, baptism, “Christ” as many see him, or saints, and so forth … will find that none of these infallibly save us. Even when we are sincerely trying.
Sincerely trying doesn’t get anyone anywhere—salvation in all aspects is absolutely dependent on faith, not trying. The truth is, many are indeed mistaken, and works done out of self-sufficiency will not be vindicated in Judgment, on that you are absolutely correct. But those who believe on (trust) the name (Messianic identity) of Jesus for life are indeed secure in their ultimate identity and destiny.

I guess my remarks in defense of myself are general; anyone can be taken as being too partial, in exegesis.

Jim:

What do we do, to deal with the Two (Contradictory) Voices in the Bible’s text: the one that 1) warns about sins and errors in every aspect of Religion, even what is called Christianity; and the 2) one that seems to assure us that most (even all) of us who invoke the name of Christ, will be saved?

To try to deal with the apparent contradiction, by asserting some kind of double action – like a two-phased Judgement. A 1) first condemning phase – but 2) then a final vindication. But that doesn’t quite work for me. Having heard 1,000 Reformed sermons, I’m not happy with this kind of solution.

Rather, my solution would be to read the text more carefully. In a case like 1 Corin 1, where we are apparently assured that most of us who are “righteous” will be saved? Note that many are simply not righteous.

Or if one text seems to say that all those who call on “Christ,” will be saved? those who have “the Son” will assuredly have life? I would recall the warning voice from God … that many will THINK they have the son; and yet be mistaken; may be following a False Christ, or a false idea of Christ. So that many will quote and call on even the name of Christ, the “Lord, Lord”; and yet that will not be enough. Jesus will say he “knew them not”; they were either merely mouthing pities, or in any case were invoking his name, but did not follow the right idea of Christ.

It is nice to think that there is some special grace or gift in the Bible, that will absolutely protect us from the many sins in holy things, that the Bible warned about; errors in churches, in saints, and so forth. Like Grace. Or invoking the “name” of Christ. And yet? Though parts of the Bible seem to suggest that this or that special grace or gift will finally do it – some “anointing” or “blood” or “baptism”? Look up these special gifts in a concordance … and you will find that sooner or later the Bible itself warned that there will often be insufficiencies in each and every one of these allegedly saving gifts.

So that I conclude? Those who feel all-to0 assured of their own salvation, are mistaken. Religion, Christianity, contains thousands of pitfalls. Even those who invoke anointing, angels, baptism, “Christ” as many see him, or saints, and so forth … will find that none of these infallibly save us. Even when we are sincerely trying.