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	<title>Comments on: Restoring God&#8217;s Reputation?</title>
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	<description>Serving the joyful cultivation of the theological craft for the life of the church: inquiring honestly, deliberating wisely, acting faithfully</description>
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		<title>By: Berny Belvedere</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/restoring-gods-reputation/#comment-32961</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Berny Belvedere]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 01:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=5213#comment-32961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know much about Olson&#039;s views, but from that quote it seems as if he&#039;s pushing a partial Molinist account of divine and human agency. What&#039;s strange about his position is that if God is able to &quot;manipulate historical circumstances&quot; all the while preserving something like libertarian freedom in human beings *some* of the time, then it&#039;s not clear why he wouldn&#039;t do this *all* of the time. God&#039;s &quot;middle knowledge,&quot; if Molinism is true, is the apparatus that would enable this stronger scenario. I&#039;m not sure if Olson is even aware of that option. It would be pathetic if he weren&#039;t, as that view is hundreds of years old by now.

If he&#039;s not a Molinist, and if he&#039;s simply a &quot;foreknowledge Arminian,&quot; then his view faces arguments to the effect that God&#039;s foreknowledge, together with his omniscience, collapses into an epistemic determinism which leaves no room for agency of the libertarian variety.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know much about Olson&#8217;s views, but from that quote it seems as if he&#8217;s pushing a partial Molinist account of divine and human agency. What&#8217;s strange about his position is that if God is able to &#8220;manipulate historical circumstances&#8221; all the while preserving something like libertarian freedom in human beings *some* of the time, then it&#8217;s not clear why he wouldn&#8217;t do this *all* of the time. God&#8217;s &#8220;middle knowledge,&#8221; if Molinism is true, is the apparatus that would enable this stronger scenario. I&#8217;m not sure if Olson is even aware of that option. It would be pathetic if he weren&#8217;t, as that view is hundreds of years old by now.</p>
<p>If he&#8217;s not a Molinist, and if he&#8217;s simply a &#8220;foreknowledge Arminian,&#8221; then his view faces arguments to the effect that God&#8217;s foreknowledge, together with his omniscience, collapses into an epistemic determinism which leaves no room for agency of the libertarian variety.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Duby</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/restoring-gods-reputation/#comment-32940</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Duby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:25:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Hi Kevin,

Thanks for stopping in and commenting.  I would of course agree that it is important for Olson (and other Arminians) that God allows individuals to choose whether they will embrace salvation and supplies to all a prevenient grace to help in that.  

The main point, though, is that Olson criticizes the Calvinistic view of God because it acknowledges that God does not do all that he possibly could do to save all human persons while Olson himself (at least implicitly) says the same about God when he affirms that God can ensure that human beings will make certain choices without compromising the integrity of their volition.  In other words, whatever else may be said about classical Arminianism, it does not actually get God off the hook, as it were, at just this point - and for Olson it&#039;s a very important point.

Without taking the Barthian road myself, I would also heartily agree that election and reprobation are &#039;asymmetrical&#039; (to borrow your terminology above).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kevin,</p>
<p>Thanks for stopping in and commenting.  I would of course agree that it is important for Olson (and other Arminians) that God allows individuals to choose whether they will embrace salvation and supplies to all a prevenient grace to help in that.  </p>
<p>The main point, though, is that Olson criticizes the Calvinistic view of God because it acknowledges that God does not do all that he possibly could do to save all human persons while Olson himself (at least implicitly) says the same about God when he affirms that God can ensure that human beings will make certain choices without compromising the integrity of their volition.  In other words, whatever else may be said about classical Arminianism, it does not actually get God off the hook, as it were, at just this point &#8211; and for Olson it&#8217;s a very important point.</p>
<p>Without taking the Barthian road myself, I would also heartily agree that election and reprobation are &#8216;asymmetrical&#8217; (to borrow your terminology above).</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Davis</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/restoring-gods-reputation/#comment-32933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Davis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=5213#comment-32933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;If that is so for Arminian theology – that it does not bar God from infallibly securing an event or outcome of particular importance in redemptive history even where human agents are involved – then it too must face the question of why God would not do this more frequently in order to ensure the salvation of more human beings.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t think that Olson is saying that any individual&#039;s salvation is necessarily (irresistibly) saved, apart from their free assent. A basic point of Arminianism is that saving grace requires the free response (assent) of the creature -- a libertarian freedom (of being able to not assent). For those who do not assent (reject grace), the culpability for their damnation is upon the individual entirely, not upon God who desires that none should perish. Thus, God&#039;s love for all is secured, so long as no person is damned because they weren&#039;t given sufficient grace. All persons are given sufficient grace to be restored -- otherwise, it could not be said that God wishes none should perish. In other words, if God desires that everyone repent (and not perish) then He will give everyone the means of grace sufficient for such repentance and redemption.

Interestingly, even Reformed orthodoxy can push in this direction -- insofar as the asymmetry of election and reprobation is stressed. For many of those who stress this asymmetry, the reprobate are reprobate because they reject the grace of God, not because of any insufficiency on God&#039;s part to provide the means for their salvation. This is hotly debated, of course, and many Calvinists would indeed say that the reprobate are reprobate because God gives them no sufficient means for their salvation (because He has decided their reprobation from eternity). Someone like John Owen is clearly saying the latter.

As for myself, I&#039;m still working on this issue (for 10 years now!), and I&#039;m coming to the point of just going with Karl Barth&#039;s dialectical take. Barth doesn&#039;t &quot;solve&quot; this dilemma, but at least Barth lets us say that God really loves everyone! I&#039;m afraid that the strict &lt;i&gt;ordo salutis&lt;/i&gt; of, say, John Owen is incompatible with any serious statement that God loves everyone. As Barth would say, God does not love everyone because he &quot;has to&quot; (necessity) but because he freely chooses &lt;i&gt;to be&lt;/i&gt; such a God from eternity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If that is so for Arminian theology – that it does not bar God from infallibly securing an event or outcome of particular importance in redemptive history even where human agents are involved – then it too must face the question of why God would not do this more frequently in order to ensure the salvation of more human beings.</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that Olson is saying that any individual&#8217;s salvation is necessarily (irresistibly) saved, apart from their free assent. A basic point of Arminianism is that saving grace requires the free response (assent) of the creature &#8212; a libertarian freedom (of being able to not assent). For those who do not assent (reject grace), the culpability for their damnation is upon the individual entirely, not upon God who desires that none should perish. Thus, God&#8217;s love for all is secured, so long as no person is damned because they weren&#8217;t given sufficient grace. All persons are given sufficient grace to be restored &#8212; otherwise, it could not be said that God wishes none should perish. In other words, if God desires that everyone repent (and not perish) then He will give everyone the means of grace sufficient for such repentance and redemption.</p>
<p>Interestingly, even Reformed orthodoxy can push in this direction &#8212; insofar as the asymmetry of election and reprobation is stressed. For many of those who stress this asymmetry, the reprobate are reprobate because they reject the grace of God, not because of any insufficiency on God&#8217;s part to provide the means for their salvation. This is hotly debated, of course, and many Calvinists would indeed say that the reprobate are reprobate because God gives them no sufficient means for their salvation (because He has decided their reprobation from eternity). Someone like John Owen is clearly saying the latter.</p>
<p>As for myself, I&#8217;m still working on this issue (for 10 years now!), and I&#8217;m coming to the point of just going with Karl Barth&#8217;s dialectical take. Barth doesn&#8217;t &#8220;solve&#8221; this dilemma, but at least Barth lets us say that God really loves everyone! I&#8217;m afraid that the strict <i>ordo salutis</i> of, say, John Owen is incompatible with any serious statement that God loves everyone. As Barth would say, God does not love everyone because he &#8220;has to&#8221; (necessity) but because he freely chooses <i>to be</i> such a God from eternity.</p>
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