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	<title>Comments on: Punished Twice Over?</title>
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	<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/punished-twice-over/</link>
	<description>Serving the joyful cultivation of the theological craft for the life of the church: inquiring honestly, deliberating wisely, acting faithfully</description>
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		<title>By: On the atonement &#171; The Molinist</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/punished-twice-over/#comment-34523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[On the atonement &#171; The Molinist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=5217#comment-34523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] discussion of the tenability of penal substution within an Arminian theological framework. In &#8216;Punished Twice Over?&#8217;, Steve Duby examines the suggestion [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] discussion of the tenability of penal substution within an Arminian theological framework. In &#8216;Punished Twice Over?&#8217;, Steve Duby examines the suggestion [...]</p>
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		<title>By: geordieziegler</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/punished-twice-over/#comment-33284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[geordieziegler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/?p=5217#comment-33284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not saying that legal is the opposite of personal, though I can see how I gave that impression.  What I am saying is that when legal tries to be the organizing centre of how we understand the atonement, then we run into problems - just as presenting an ontological version or a cultic version of the atonement without including the legal would also be problematic.  Scripture speaks of each of these, and each must have its proper place.  

So my point is that when a &#039;penal substitutionary reading&#039; of the atonement is offered that does not situate itself alongside these other readings, what we are left with is a view of God and God&#039;s relation to the world in which God is a subject of &#039;the law&#039;.  I would argue that the law is GOD&#039;S law, and as such, it is the law of his love - so that his wrath is not to be contrasted with or opposed to his love; rather, it is the expression of his love.

So in your post, you rightly critique Olsen&#039;s anticipation of the response to his argument for the necessity of &#039;subjective appropriation&#039; and the necessity of not only passive but also active judgment.  You then point out that &quot;in Scripture, the acceptability of Christ’s substitutionary death rests with God, not with us, and the person (Christ) serving as the substitute was appointed out of love by the Judge himself to be the representative of those for whom he is the substitute (e.g., Rom. 5:12-21).&quot;  And then you conclude:  &quot;penal substitutionary atonement without either particular redemption or universal salvation does involve a double punishment on the part of God and therefore does raise significant questions about the righteousness (and wisdom) of God.&quot;

I think your conclusion perfectly illustrates my point that the legal on its own leads to &#039;significant questions about&#039; the character of God.  What is missing i believe is embedding the legal into a fuller understanding of Christ&#039;s incarnation in which his whole life obedience and relationship with the Father is our offering of atonement, and through union with him, we share in that.  From this reading, union with Christ can be viewed as both ontologically objective (Christ united himself to our humanity for us) and as such legally and culticly satisfying, yet all this without suppressing the necessity of the &#039;subjective appropriation&#039; by the individual (through which by the Spirit we are subjectively united to Christ).  This is what i mean by &#039;personal&#039; - that our personal response to God matters.  

T.F. Torrance (see his Mediation of Christ) is very helpful on this matter of refusing to let one &#039;theory&#039; of atonement take the centre away from the incarnate Christ himself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying that legal is the opposite of personal, though I can see how I gave that impression.  What I am saying is that when legal tries to be the organizing centre of how we understand the atonement, then we run into problems &#8211; just as presenting an ontological version or a cultic version of the atonement without including the legal would also be problematic.  Scripture speaks of each of these, and each must have its proper place.  </p>
<p>So my point is that when a &#8216;penal substitutionary reading&#8217; of the atonement is offered that does not situate itself alongside these other readings, what we are left with is a view of God and God&#8217;s relation to the world in which God is a subject of &#8216;the law&#8217;.  I would argue that the law is GOD&#8217;S law, and as such, it is the law of his love &#8211; so that his wrath is not to be contrasted with or opposed to his love; rather, it is the expression of his love.</p>
<p>So in your post, you rightly critique Olsen&#8217;s anticipation of the response to his argument for the necessity of &#8216;subjective appropriation&#8217; and the necessity of not only passive but also active judgment.  You then point out that &#8220;in Scripture, the acceptability of Christ’s substitutionary death rests with God, not with us, and the person (Christ) serving as the substitute was appointed out of love by the Judge himself to be the representative of those for whom he is the substitute (e.g., Rom. 5:12-21).&#8221;  And then you conclude:  &#8220;penal substitutionary atonement without either particular redemption or universal salvation does involve a double punishment on the part of God and therefore does raise significant questions about the righteousness (and wisdom) of God.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think your conclusion perfectly illustrates my point that the legal on its own leads to &#8216;significant questions about&#8217; the character of God.  What is missing i believe is embedding the legal into a fuller understanding of Christ&#8217;s incarnation in which his whole life obedience and relationship with the Father is our offering of atonement, and through union with him, we share in that.  From this reading, union with Christ can be viewed as both ontologically objective (Christ united himself to our humanity for us) and as such legally and culticly satisfying, yet all this without suppressing the necessity of the &#8216;subjective appropriation&#8217; by the individual (through which by the Spirit we are subjectively united to Christ).  This is what i mean by &#8216;personal&#8217; &#8211; that our personal response to God matters.  </p>
<p>T.F. Torrance (see his Mediation of Christ) is very helpful on this matter of refusing to let one &#8216;theory&#8217; of atonement take the centre away from the incarnate Christ himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Duby</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/punished-twice-over/#comment-33271</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Duby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 22:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Hi Geordie,

Thanks for your comments.  I&#039;m responding late here, but I do agree that it would be a seriously liability for any reading of the atonement to eradicate its personal character.  I just don&#039;t see how the penal substitutionary reading actually would do that.  First, it doesn&#039;t necessarily exclude any other vital dimensions of the atonement.  Second, it is itself a personal reading of the atonement with one of the persons of the Godhead taking on flesh and representing other human persons, bearing their guilt to reconcile (personal, again) them to God.  In other words, I think one would be hard-pressed to argue successfully that legal is the opposite of personal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Geordie,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.  I&#8217;m responding late here, but I do agree that it would be a seriously liability for any reading of the atonement to eradicate its personal character.  I just don&#8217;t see how the penal substitutionary reading actually would do that.  First, it doesn&#8217;t necessarily exclude any other vital dimensions of the atonement.  Second, it is itself a personal reading of the atonement with one of the persons of the Godhead taking on flesh and representing other human persons, bearing their guilt to reconcile (personal, again) them to God.  In other words, I think one would be hard-pressed to argue successfully that legal is the opposite of personal.</p>
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		<title>By: geordieziegler</title>
		<link>http://theologyforum.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/punished-twice-over/#comment-33129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[geordieziegler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Hi Steve,
My thought is that the problem with all the analogies you are quoting is that they are all looking for some full-proof legal system in order to make their case.  Perhaps that is the limitation of any penal substitutionary theory - the exclusion of the personal.  Yet to the extent that anyone tries to offer a version of atonement that by-passes the personal encounter of God and the creature, that theory will be untrue.  Talk about governments &#039;reneging&#039; just because the person rejects the pardon ignores the significance of the relational side of the gospel and of the God-human relation. 
Geordie]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Steve,<br />
My thought is that the problem with all the analogies you are quoting is that they are all looking for some full-proof legal system in order to make their case.  Perhaps that is the limitation of any penal substitutionary theory &#8211; the exclusion of the personal.  Yet to the extent that anyone tries to offer a version of atonement that by-passes the personal encounter of God and the creature, that theory will be untrue.  Talk about governments &#8216;reneging&#8217; just because the person rejects the pardon ignores the significance of the relational side of the gospel and of the God-human relation.<br />
Geordie</p>
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